Wednesday, August 13, 2008

Keep Out!


"Now when the adversaries of Judah and Benjamin heard that the children of the captivity were building a temple unto the LORD, the God of Israel; then they drew near to Zerubbabel, and to the heads of fathers' houses, and said unto them: 'Let us build with you; for we seek your God, as ye do; and we do sacrifice unto Him since the days of Esarhaddon king of Assyria, who brought us up hither.' But Zerubbabel, and Jeshua, and the rest of the heads of fathers' houses of Israel, said unto them: 'Ye have nothing to do with us to build a house unto our God; but we ourselves together will build unto the LORD, the God of Israel, as king Cyrus the king of Persia hath commanded us.'"(Ezra 4:1-3)


When the Jews returned from their 70 year long Babylonian captivity, they decided that the first aspect in the redemption of Zion was the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem. The Samaritans, descendants of the nations brought in by the Assyrian king to replace the exiled Ten Tribes, offered the new olim help in rebuilding the Holy Temple. Zerubbabel, the leader of the returnees, knowing that the Samaritans were idol-worshippers, refused to let them participate in the rebuilding. Although it would have been easier to allow them to help, Zerubabbel knew that idolatrous elements could not be allowed to help build the Holy Temple.

Today, in many Christian Fundamentalist communities, a frightening new movement is arising. Many Fundamentalists Christians seek to be "grafted in" to the Jewish people. Donning tallis and kippot, they claim to be heirs to the spiritual blessings of Avraham Avinu by accepting JC. They quote the words of their bible, Romans 4, as promising them the inheritance of Avraham. "Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring... He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed." Therefore, they are the beneficiaries of G-d's promise of the Land of Israel to Abraham's descendants, the people of Israel. These groups, sometimes known as Efraimites, believe that it is their duty to assist in the return of Israel to its land and in its redemption. By doing so, they will hasten the return of their messiah (of course, all Jews who do not accept him as their saviour will burn in hell for all of eternity). They contribute billions of dollars to building settlements in Israel and provide Israel with a lot of support.

By calling themselves Efraimites, they believe that G-d will reunite them with the house of Judah ie. the Jews. This is yet another attempt by Fundamentalist Christians to merge Judaism and Christianity into one faith. To this extent, these Christians worship in what they call 'synagogue' and imitate Jewish faith and practice. More disturbing than their stealing Jewish rituals is their belief in reclaiming parts of the Land of Israel. Efraimite movements such as the Messianic Israel Alliance declare their goal as "the reunion and full restoration of the two houses: This is the hope that burns in the hearts of those of Messianic Israel..." Christian Zionist is their tool to gain control of parts of the Land. There are currently about 15 000 "faithful" (Messianic) Jews living in Israel and there is an army of missionaries trained to steal Jewish souls prowling the country. These Efraimite groups have called for Christians to make aliyah.

This new movement should scare every self-respecting Jew. By wishing to "graft themselves into the House of Israel", they seek to erode and destroy the unique spiritual heritage of Judaism. G-d chose the Jewish people out of all nations and called upong us to be separate, distinct and different. Chrisitans ("Efraimites") living in Israel would severely de-Judaize the land, robbing it of its distinct Jewish heritage and faith. It would exacerbate Jewish assimilation into the nations and effectively end peacefully what the enemies of the Jewish people have sought to end by auto-da-fés, pogroms and gas chambers. Just as Zerubbabel and the Jews who returned from Babylonia had the courage to tell the Samaritans that they had no share in the Land and the Temple, we must be firm in saying to all Christians that the Land of Israel is the inheritance of every single Jew, and only Jews. We must spurn their gifts and say loud and clear that they have no place in our land and their soul-stealing will not be tolerated.

Only in spiritual isolation, planted in the Land of Israel, can true salvation sprout and we merit the fulfillment of the prophecy "And there shall come forth a shoot out of the stock of Jesse, and a twig shall grow forth out of his roots... for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.." Amen, speedily in our days!

87 comments:

Ralph said...

BK
you posted:-
"...that the Land of Israel is the inheritance of every single Jew, and only Jews."

By use of definition, one can only disagree with that statement. It would be more accurately stated as:-
"...that the Land of Israel is the inheritance of every single Israelite, including the Jews."

Also:-
"Donning tallis and kippot,..."
I can understand the "Donning tallis" as a requirement of law abiding Christians as in:-
"Num 15:38 'Speak unto the children of Israel, and bid them that they make them throughout their generations fringes in the corners of their garments, and that they put with the fringe of each corner a thread of blue."
(e-Sword Tanach - JPS)

but "kippot", the skull cap, there is no Torah commandment for such headwear. What do these 'Efraimites' consider themselves to be, Roman Catholic priests, bishops, cardinals, or even second edition popes, with their peculiar 'Zuchetto'?

also:-
"By doing so, they will hasten the return of their messiah.."
I don't think that anybody, including the Jews, will 'hasten the return of the Messiah'
The most we can all do is pray for his hasty return before we are all wiped off the face of this planet.

also:-
"By calling themselves Efraimites, they believe that G-d will reunite them with the house of Judah ie. the Jews."
So, what is your take on the prophecy from Ezekiel:-
"Eze 37:19 say into them: Thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his companions; and I will put them unto him together with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in My hand."?
(e-Sword Tanakh - JPS)

Don't you think that the House of Israel will eventually be reunited with the House of Judah?

also:-
"G-d chose the Jewish people out of all nations and called upong us to be separate, distinct and different."
Why not face the facts:- "G-d chose the NATION OF ISRAEL, including the Jews (just one of the thirteen tribes) out of all nations and called upon all of us to be separate, distinct and different."

The NATION OF ISRAEL, not the State of Israel.

Ralph said...

Keep Out!

Perhaps it would be unwise to repulse the 'Teshuva' of the House of Israel.
(When the time comes, that is!)

Yehudi01 said...

Ralph, you consistantly miss the point of the post, and the non-sense you come up with is comedy, at best. You said, "Donning tallis and kippot,..."
I can understand the "Donning tallis" as a requirement of law abiding Christians as in:-
"Num 15:38 'Speak unto the children of Israel, and bid them that they make them throughout their generations fringes in the corners of their garments, and that they put with the fringe of each corner a thread of blue."


How in the world could you interpret that to apply to non-Jews? Or 'law-abiding christians' more specifically????? Do you somehow see yourself on equal footing with Jews, with regard to the Torah and it's requirements/blessings?

Ralph said...

Yehudi01
you asked:-
"Do you somehow see yourself on equal footing with Jews, with regard to the Torah and it's requirements/blessings?"

In that regard, most definitely.

As I have previously commented, the NT is built on the foundation of the OT where every word is inspired by G-d. Consequently how could any true Christian ignore the words of a man acknowledged as the wisest who has ever lived:
"Ecc 12:12 And furthermore, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
Ecc 12:13 The end of the matter, all having been heard: fear God, and keep His commandments; for this is the whole man. (H120)
Ecc 12:14 For God shall bring every work into the judgment concerning every hidden thing, whether it be good or whether it be evil."
(e-Sword Tanach - JPS)

(H120)
Strong's definition:-
"H120
ָאָדם
’āḏām: A masculine noun meaning a male, any human being, or generically the human race. The word is used to signify a man, as opposed to a woman (Gen_2:18; Ecc_7:28); a human (Num_23:19; Pro_17:18; Isa_17:7); the human race in general (Gen_1:27; Num_8:17; Psa_144:3; Isa_2:17); and the representative embodiment of humanity, as the appellation "son of man" indicates (Eze_2:1, Eze_2:3). The first man used this word as a proper noun, "Adam" (Gen_2:20)."

It sure seems like someone is missing the point.

ps. Can you direct me to the Torah commandment that requires "donning the kippot"?

Bar Kochba said...

Leviticus 20:7 tells the Jewish people to be holy because our G-d is holy. G-d distinguished the nation of Israel from all other nations by giving them the Torah and the 613 mitzvot.

Deut 4:7-8
"For what great nation is there, that hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is whensoever we call upon Him? And what great nation is there, that hath statutes and ordinances so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?" The Torah connects Israel's accpetance of the mitzvot to its unique experience in Egypt. The mitzvot are the unique property of Israel and a goy has no share in the 613 (though they are bound by the 7).

And that brings us to the issues of boundaries. I certainly believe in the Torah's promise of the return of Ephraim and the Ten Tribes to the rest of Israel. However, as a Christian and a GOY (non-Jew), you are not a memeber of Ephraim and have no claim in the land. Where did you get the idea that you are Ephraim? Christians are NON-JEWS and idolaters and have no share in the Land of Israel.

The onus is on you to prove that you are a member of Ephraim. We all know however, that you are a GOY.

Bar Kochba said...

As for kippot, Exodus 28:4 mandates that priests cover their heads. Jews are to be a kingdom of priests.

Jewish law obligates Jews to cover their heads. The uniqueness of a Jewish head covering is hinted at in the blessing we say every morning, thanking God for "crowning Israel with splendor" (Talmud - Brachot 60b)The kippah is a means to draw out one's inner sense of respect for God. The Talmud says that the purpose of wearing a kippah is to remind us of God, who is the Higher Authority "above us" (Kiddushin 31a).

Ralph said...

On August 14, 2008 at 2:56 AM
I wrote:-
"The most we can all do is pray for his hasty return before we are all wiped off the face of this planet."

I want to rephrase that and say:-
"The best we can all do is repent, and pray for his hasty return before we are all wiped off the face of this planet.

גילוי said...

Bar Kochba,

It is hardly worth the time. Every time you use the words Jew or Israelite, Ralph will put forth a distortion of the terms, despite being addressed numerous times on prior posts.

Ralph said...

גילוי
What do you mean "Ralph will put forth a distortion of the terms,.."

I just want to clarify the distinction so that we can all know what you are talking about. Is it about the House of Judah, the Jews, ie. including Benjamin and Levi, or the House of Israel, the descendants of the northern tribes, two entirely separate, and different entities?

Or are you talking about the NATION OF ISRAEL which embraces all 13 tribes?

Geula Girl said...

What motivates these Ephraimites/xtian zionists is arrogance, greed, pride and jealousy (Esav jealous of Ya'aqov). It is pointless to try to explain things to them because they are not interested in the truth. We need to focus on making Jews aware of the Ephraimite phenomenon and its threat to Am Yisrael. They have infiltrated every facet of Israeli society as you can see on my blog.

גילוי said...

We have discussed this before, Ralph.

The lack of Torah observance over the generations has made the 10 tribes disappear, re-joining the nation of Israel requires conversion at this point, which entails observance of the mitzvot of the Torah as brought down in the Oral Torah.

The prophecy of the 2 sticks, I believe I also explained in a prior post.

Geula Girl said...

There are certain tribal groups around the world that are known by our Rabbis to be decendents of the lost tribes. I believe that the "lost tribes" who were in xtinanity have come back to Am Yisrael through halachic conversion and the xtians who are claiming to be from the "lost tribes" who want all the rewards of being part of Am Yisrael while following a false g-d are the erev rav who were mixed with the 10 tribes.

Devash said...

BK, the antidote to this is the mass aliyah of all North American JEWS.

Ralph said...

on August 15, 2008 at 4:10 AM
Devash said:-
"..the antidote to this is the mass aliyah of all North American JEWS."

Perhaps they are all too comfortable where they are, for the time being. It's possible they may change their minds when the allies of Russia, China, Iran and others first begin their attack on the US as found in Ezekiel 38.

ps. The antidote to what?

Ralph said...

on August 15, 2008 at 3:43 AM
Geula Girl said...
" What motivates these Ephraimites/xtian zionists is arrogance, greed, pride and jealousy"

and I immediately thought of a quotation from that noted Scots poet Robbie Burns. It is this:-
"O would some power the giftie gie us to see ourselves as others see us."

found at:- http://www.quotationspage.com/search.php3?Search=to+see+ourselves&startsearch=Search&Author=
burns&C=mgm&C=motivate&C=classic&C=coles&C=poo
rc&C=lindsly

Ralph said...

on August 15, 2008 at 3:43 AM
Geula Girl said...
"What motivates these Ephraimites/xtian zionists is arrogance, greed, pride and jealousy (Esav jealous of Ya'aqov)."

So, are you suggesting that Ephraim is descended from Esau?

Ralph said...

BK
I want to, and do, expresss my appreciation for the opportunity of contributing comments to your Blog. By doing so during the past few weeks I have learnt more about Judaism than I have ever known since I started my walk with G-d so many years ago.
Thank you.

גילוי said...

Ralph,

Let me remind you that you are the only one posting here that actually believes this claim that they are from Ephraim. They are not physical descendants of Ephraim, but they are spiritual descendants of Edom.

Papa Frank said...

Christians are actually sons and daughters of God. And true Christians are motivated only by love which is how you will recognize true Christians -- by their love.

גילוי said...

G-d said that Israel is His son, not Christians.

Ralph said...

גילוי
on August 16, 2008 at 11:54 PM
you said:-
"Let me remind you that you are the only one posting here that actually believes this claim that they are from Ephraim."

I hope you are not including me with the "they". I have never claimed to be a descendent of Ephraim. So far I have only been able to trace my genealogy back to my great grandparents who emmigrated from England and I have no idea as to their lineage. For all I know they may be descended from the tribe of Reuben, or Menasseh, who knows? (G-d does, for sure) Also, I have no idea at present, as to who these people, those you describe as claiming to be Ephraimites, are. This is the first I have heard of them.
You say they are not physical descendants of Ephraim but, in any case, how do you know that? I think you may be guessing or perhaps following the lead of the Rabbis.

You say they are spiritual descendants of Edom. Where does that idea come from?

Ralph said...

גילוי
on August 17, 2008 at 1:14 AM
you said:-
"G-d said that Israel is His son, not Christians."

So, do you see yourself as a son of G-d?

Ralph said...

Bar Kochba
on August 14, 2008 at 9:02 PM
you said:-
"..Exodus 28:4 mandates that priests cover their heads."

Exodus 28 is directed to Moses' brother Aaron who was a Levite, of the tribe of Levi; not a Jew of the tribe of Judah.

You also said:-
"Jews are to be a kingdom of priests."
and I don't know from where comes that idea!
The tribe of Judah was/is to provide kings for Israel, the whole nation, not priests. viz:-
"Gen 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, as long as men come to Shiloh; and unto him shall the obedience of the peoples be."
(e-Sword Tanach - JPS)

Nothing at all about "the priesthood shall not depart from Judah".

Where is it written in the Tanach that Judah will be priests of Israel?

Ralph said...

Bar Kochba
on August 14, 2008 at 8:59 PM
you said:-
"Leviticus 20:7 tells the Jewish people to be holy because our G-d is holy."

Yes He did. And verse 2 "Lev 20:2 Moreover, thou shalt say to the children of Israel:.."
indicates that he said the same thing to all the people of Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Zebulun, Issachar, Dan, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Benjamin, Manasseh and Ephraim.

Which kinda puts Judah in the minority, doesn't it?

You also said:-
"..as a Christian and a GOY (non-Jew), you are not a member of Ephraim.."
I have never claimed to be an Ephraimite and have no way of proving that I might be. BUT, neither can you prove that I am not, literally speaking.

You also said:-
"We all know however, that you are a GOY." (a non Jew)
Do you also use disparaging terms to describe your brothers of Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Zebulun, Issachar, Dan, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Benjamin, Manasseh and Ephraim, who are also NON-JEWS? That is, not of the tribe of Judah.

גילוי said...

Ralph,

Your comments are extremely annoying. You have been told over and over again the meaning of the words we use, such as Jew, Israel, etc. Yet you continue to pretend as if the entire planet runs by your list of definitions. It is absolutely useless to reply to you if you continue to act as if you are blind.

Bar Kochba said...

Goyyim are non-Israelites. Israel is a people that dwells apart and among the nations is not reckoned. It is not a disparaging term. If you believe that you are a descendant of the tribes of Israel, then the burden of proof is on YOU.

The Ten Tribes were exiled by the Assyrian king Sancherib. They assimilated among the nations and, barring a miracle, they are lost, for all intents and purposes. Therefore, we do not speak of them. Anyone who follows the 613 mitzvot of the Torah is considered a Jew today (and of course is of Israelite ancestry or underwent a halakhic conversion), although he may really be of a different tribes. The Bnei Menashe of India are referred to as Jews. Mordechai in Shushan was a Benjaminite but was called "a Jewish man".

Papa Frank said...

BK -- are you back from Israel or are you still there?

Ralph said...

BK
on August 17, 2008 at 3:00 PM
you said:-
"It (GOY) is not a disparaging term."

If it is not, then I stand corrected. However, I find from Answers.com:-
"n. Offensive., pl. goy·im (goi'ĭm) or goys.
Used as a disparaging term for one who is not a Jew.
[Yiddish, from Hebrew gôy, Jew ignorant of the Jewish religion, non-Jew.]"

and from my Merriam-Webster dictionary software:-
"Main Entry:goy
Pronunciation: *g*i
Function: noun
Inflected Form: plural goyim \*g*i-*m\ ; also goys
Etymology:Yiddish, from Hebrew g*y people, nation
Date:1841
sometimes disparaging : GENTILE 1
–goyish \*g*i-ish\ adjective , sometimes disparaging"

With the emphasis you had placed on the word, I took it as being disparaging.

also:-
"If you believe that you are a descendant of the tribes of Israel, then the burden of proof is on YOU."

The proof for whom? G-d is able to trace my ancestry right back to the first man, Adam. I know that I can't do that. However, I do accept the inspired word of Yeshua haMoshiach as it's written:-
"Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
(e-Sword AKJ)

Unfortunately you don't seem to like the idea that G-d could consider all men as equals, He is no respecter of persons.
"Isa 66:2 For all these things hath My hand made, and so all these things came to be, saith the LORD; but on this MAN will I look, even on him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at My word."
(e-Sword Tanach - JPS)

The MAN doesn't have to be a JEW.

G-d's favour is not restricted to the Jew.

also:-
"Therefore, we do not speak of them."

I suggest that you have never bothered to do any research to determine if the "House of Israel", the ten northern ntribes, were ".. assimilated among the nations and, barring a miracle, they are lost, for all intents and purposes."

Someone or something has closed your mind to the Tanach prophecies concerning the "House of Israel".

Bar Kochba said...

Papa Frank: I came back last Sunday. :( I wish I was back...

Ralph: Goy can be used disparagingly in the same way Jew can be used disparagingly. I meant no disrespect. A goy is simply a non-Jew (or a non-Israelite, if you will.)

Your quote from Galatians is exactly my point. (I was looking for that quote but couldn't find it.) Christians keep on trying to be "grafted in" to Israel, to become Jews. They wear Jewish clothes and mimic Jewish rituals. Thats is what is so offensive to me. Hence the title 'Keep Out!'. I want Christians to accept that Judaism and Christianity are very different belief systems which are not compatible. I do not missionize to Christians and am forthright with my beliefs and I expect the same from them.

I have never said that only Jews are recipients of G-d's mercy. The righteous of all nations have a share in the world to Come. A non-Jew need simply adhere to the 7 Noahide commandments.

As for the Ten Tribes, no one knows where they have gone to. It is a matter of considerable halachic controversy as to how and if they will return. Suffice it to say that such a thing is up to G-d. However, anybody claiming to be a descendant of the Tribes but worships the flase god of JC is nothing but a liar and a missionary.

Papa Frank said...

And what if they don't worship the false god JC but rather worship the One Almighty God in his entirety as Father, Son, and Spirit? I would never pretend to be Jewish in order to "missionize" Jews but neither will I ever apologize for worshipping Almighty God. Where does that leave me?

BTW -- welcome back! And may you be able to return to Israel for good one day as I know it is what you hope for.

Ralph said...

Hello Papa Frank
you used the expression:-
"...worship the One Almighty God in his entirety as Father, Son, and Spirit."

and I am curious as to if you see 'the Spirit' as a separate entity or, personality. In other words do you accept the theory of the 'Trinity", three separate beings as one ?

Bar Kochba said...

Papa Frank: That leaves you as a CHRISTian. The end.

Papa Frank said...

Great! That's what I claim to be and what I am proud to be. I understand the difference between Jews and Christians and am not confused as some here seem to be.

Bar Kochba said...

And yet you seemed to support the concept of a 'Messianic' Jew ie. a person who accepts the tenets of Christianity yet refers to himself as Jewish.

Ralph said...

גילוי
on August 17, 2008 at 6:05 AM
you said:-
"Yet you continue to pretend as if the entire planet runs by your list of definitions."

Perhaps we could come to some agreement with regard to commonly accepted definitions, including biblical ones, which is what I try to use.
For example: Can we agree that the House of Judah is NOT the House of Israel but that they are two separate entities?

also:-
"Your comments are extremely annoying."

Simple answer: don't read them. They are not meant to annoy but to stimulate thinking (outside the square)

Bar Kochba said...

The House of Judah ie. the Jews are the REMNANTS of the House of Israel. The rest have assimilated among the nations. They are irrelevant until the Messianic age. Suffice it to say that Christians are not Israelites and have NO share in the Land of Israel or in the Torah of Israel.

Papa Frank said...

"And yet you seemed to support the concept of a 'Messianic' Jew ie. a person who accepts the tenets of Christianity yet refers to himself as Jewish."

This is somewhat true. I do believe there are Messianic Jews but do not believe they are "a person who accepts the tenets of Christianity yet refers to himself as Jewish." I believe that being born Jewish entitles you to the "birthright" so to speak of being a Jew. That is also the very law of Israel, unless I misunderstand it. Therefore, someone who is a Jew by birth and has come to an understanding that they believe Yeshua to be their Messiah in my book would be what you would call a Messianic Jew. These people do not consider themselves Christians and I have no reason to believe that they are Christians. To me, and to them, they are Jews who feel their eyes have been opened and they have seen that Yeshua was/is the one spoken of in the Torah. These people have become the objects of ridicule and hatred from their own brothers, orthodox Jews. The very people who should be standing beside their Jewish brothers and sisters and agreeing to disagree with them. Why is this? Why the hate for fellow Jews? These are people who live, eat, and breathe a passionate love for Israel. These are people who long to be in their God-given homeland. These are people willing to bleed, willing even to lay down their very life to protect Israel from her enemies. They are the doctors, businessmen, teachers, neighbors, soldiers, and countrymen of Israel. There are SO MANY who openly wage war against the Jewish people and long for her destruction. Long to see her fall and fail and die. Why would you oppose those who seek to be fellow-citizens and help to breathe life and prosperity and strength into Israel? I do not wish for any Jew to "become a Christian." I wish for the Jewish people to not be divided and to stand side by side with ALL her people and to live and breathe and be strong. Be fierce!!!

Ralph said...

Papa Frank
How would you define a "Christian"?

Papa Frank said...

I have no interest in discussing semantics with you ralph.

Yehudi01 said...

This may not make me popular here, but I agree with you 100% Jason. Well said. I have known Jews who believe that the Rebbe was Moshiach. I don't agree with them, but they're still Jews. I know Jews who are heavily into Buddhism. I don't agree with them either, but they're still Jews. I also know Jews who don't believe in G-d at all...very sad, but they're still Jews. Jews who believe that Yeshua is the Moshiach deserve to be counted among their brethren in my book.

Ralph said...

That's OK frank. I just thought you might have some simple answer backed up by OT or NT scripture, but there's no point in pursuing the matter.

Bar Kochba said...

Daniel, Chabad meshichists are completely different. They do not worship the Rebbe or see him as the son of G-d, as Christians see JC. That is idolatry. The Torah says clearly that we must "exterminate evil from our midst". It provides laws for destroying an apostate city (and enttity which turns to idolatry must be killed!). Maybe those apostates love Israel, maybe they just love HaShem and (le'havdil elef havdalot) Baal, maybe they are "willing to bleed, willing even to lay down their very life to protect Israel from her enemies." Nonetheless, an apostate city must be destroyed and idolaters shunned and isolated. We are in a period of 'shmad', spiritual destruction. Christianity is idolatry and missionaries are busy spreading their poison all over Israel. A physically strong Israel must also be spiritually strong.

FYI The law of return does NOT apply to Messianics. A Jew who becomes a member of another faith loses his entitlement to make aliyah. 2000 years of Jewish history has determined that belief in JC places on outside the pale of Jewish belief. Look at the case of Brother Daniel, the Carmelite monk, Jewish apostate, who was not allowed to make aliyah.

Papa Frank said...

Israel HAS ruled that Messianics ARE included in the law of return. Christinity is not idolatry as we worship the same one true God of the Torah. But that is actually not here nor there as Messianics are Jews.

Yehudi01 said...

BK, I understand the argument. I'm just saying that my PERSONAL position is if I meet a Messianic Jew, I would be willing to hug him and call him 'brother.' We come from the same father, (Avraham aveinu), and the same G-d.

BK, if you were walking along in Israel and saw a Jewish mob beating a muslim terrorist to death, would you intervene? If you saw the same mob beating a Jew to death and you knew him to hold Messianic beliefs...would you intervene? Maybe you sya 'no' in this forum to protect your position, however, in your heart of hearts, I think you have more love and compassion for a fellow Jew, regardless of his personal beliefs.

Papa Frank said...

Let me explain the practical idea of Jesus. I do not worship Jesus separately as he is a facet of God and not a separate god. There is no statue of Jesus in my home or at my church. There is no picture of Jesus in my home or at my church. I do not pray to Jesus but only pray to God as a whole. This is not to say that there are not tons of Christians who do some of those things. There is no understanding of Jesus except for as being one with the Father. Think of it like this: H2O is an element that we, of course, know as water. If you freeze H2O you have ice. People don't call ice water but in fact that is all it is. If you heat H2O you have steam. Once again, people do not call steam water but that is what it is. Without H2O you do not have steam or ice. Jesus is like that. He is more of something thought of differently but made up of the Father (H2O).

Ralph said...

on August 19, 2008 at 2:03 PM
Papa Frank said...
"I do not worship Jesus separately as he is a facet of God and not a separate god."

Jesus Himself said in:-
"Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one."
then we find:-
"Joh 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Joh 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Joh 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
Joh 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
"
(e-Sword AKJ)

The Jews of Jesus' day were no different from their predecessors described in:-
"Neh 9:26 Nevertheless they were disobedient, and rebelled against Thee, and cast Thy law behind their back, and slew Thy prophets that did forewarn them to turn them back unto Thee, and they wrought great provocations."
(e-Sword Tanach - JPS)

It seems that little has changed since then.

Ralph said...

in addition to that:
on August 17, 2008 at 11:20 PM
Bar Kochba said...
"The righteous of all nations have a share in the world to Come."

And that is true!
The Tanach describes 'righteous' as in:-
"Psa 119:172 Let my tongue sing of Thy word; for all Thy commandments are righteousness."
(e-Sword Tanach - JPS)

which would seem to give the lie to your following statement, advocated by the Rabbis, ie:-
"A non-Jew need simply adhere to the 7 Noahide commandments."
which is in denial of the G-d breathed words of King Solomon:-
"Ecc 12:13 The end of the matter, all having been heard: fear God, and keep His commandments; for this is the whole man." ie.(אדם - MANKIND)
(e-Sword Tanach - JPS)

Yehudi01 said...

Ralph, you have an amazing ability to distort and confuse the issues. The 7 Noachide Laws are detailed in the christian bible in the book of Acts. It was (and always has been) understood that goyyim (you) are not required to be Torah-observant. Jews (those who descend from Abraham...not those who are magically "grafted-in"), are eternally-covenanted with Hashem to obey the Torah.

Bar Kochba said...

Papa Frank, the Law of Return has produced a very odd situation. The Law allows anyone who has a Jewish grandparent to make aliyah, although they are not authentically Jewish (so in the case of Messianics, the Law does not prove anybody's Judaism). Authentic Jews who believe in JC are not entitled to make aliyah although Christian activists have exploited a loophole allowing someone who does not have a Jewish mother (is not halachically Jewish) but has Jewish grandparents and believes in JC to make aliyah. This produces a ridiculous situation in which Messianics must prove that they are NOT Jewish in order to make aliyah. A very convoluted situation indeed.

Christianity is indeed idolatry. G-d is by definition limitless. Saying that G-d has numerous parts places limits on Him since to have numerous parts, one must have a defined border, and G-d resists definition. Furthermore, by saying that G-d incarnated Himself in human flesh, that is placing a limitation on Him since man is limited and G-d is not. That in itself is idolatry. Christianity confuses the created for the Creator.

Daniel: Might I quuote Rambam Hilchot Avodat Kochavim 10:1 to you?

"We may not draw up a covenant with idolaters which will establish peace between them [and us] and yet allow them to worship idols, as [Devarim 7:2] states: "Do not establish a covenant with them." Rather, they must renounce their [idol] worship or be slain. It is forbidden to have mercy upon them, as [Devarim, ibid] states: "Do not be gracious to them."

Accordingly, if we see an idolater being swept away or drowning in the river, we should not help him. If we see that his life is in danger, we should not save him. It is, however, forbidden to cause one of them to sink or push him into a pit or the like, since he is not waging war against us.

To whom do the above apply? To gentiles. It is a mitzvah, however, to eradicate Jewish traitors, minnim (informers), and apikorsim (heretics), and to cause them to descend to the pit of destruction, since they cause difficulty to the Jews and sway the people away from God, as did Jesus of Nazareth and his students, and Tzadok, Baithos, and their students. May the name of the wicked rot."

Ralph: Righteous for Jews. Sin for non-Jews.

Ralph said...

Yehudi01

It would seem that you find the straightforward words of the Tanach to be confusing.
It matters little what "was (and always has been) understood that goyyim (you) are not required to be Torah-observant."

What matters is what scripture says, not the machinations and/or the opinions of men.

Ralph said...

BK
"Ralph: Righteous for Jews. Sin for non-Jews."

What is sin but transgression of the Law?
Not the law of the Jew but the Law of G-d.
"Ecc 12:13 The end of the matter, all having been heard: fear God, and keep HIS commandments; for this is the whole man." ie.(אדם - MANKIND-MANKIND) (Get it yet?)
(e-Sword Tanach - JPS)

Papa Frank said...

"Christianity is indeed idolatry. G-d is by definition limitless. Saying that G-d has numerous parts places limits on Him since to have numerous parts, one must have a defined border, and G-d resists definition."

And yet you limit God more than I have ever thought of. You say that God CANNOT appear to man in a bodily form although he did appear to Moses and others. You say that God CANNOT be understood in a plural sense although during creation He was clearly spoke of in a plural sense.

What about the sect of Jews known as Kabbalists? What about their idea of God in the ten sefirot that explains the multiplicity of God's manifestations in the world? Are these Jews idolaters and Jewish traitors? Should their names rot?

Papa Frank said...

And what about when the Bible describes God's glory filling the Tabernacle, yet also describes God's presence filling the entire universe...yet at the same time He is described as being on the Throne in Heaven! To say that God CANNOT or does not manifest Himself where and when and how He wishes is futile.

Bar Kochba said...

Papa Frank, the Torah speaks the language of men. It metaphorically describes G-d's eyes, G-d's nostrils flaring, G-d's feet, although of course He has none of these features. When the Torah says that G-d's nostrils flared, do you imagine that to mean that JC was pissed? Puuleeze... G-d has no physical form. Such a thing would be limiting. (It is like the question of whether can G-d create a rock that He cannot life. He CANNOT make such a rock since that would limit Him and He is limitless.)

"Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves--for ye saw no manner of form on the day that the LORD spoke unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire-- lest ye deal corruptly, and make you a graven image, even the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female" (Deut. 4:15-16) G-d warns us that we saw no form or image at Sinai. Any reference to Moses seeing G-d's form refers to a higher level of Ruach HaKodesh, prophetic spirit, than any other prophet and is purely allegorical.

I can offer no better answer to the charges of Trinity in Genesis than the rabbis of Jews for Judaism. Here it is:

Trinitarian Christians maintain that Genesis 1:26 and Genesis 11:7 are prooftexts of an alleged tri-unity god, but this claim is erroneous. The inference that "Let us make man in our image" (Genesis 1:26) refers to the plurality of God is refuted by the subsequent verse, which relates the creation of man to a singular God, "And God created man in His image" (Genesis 1:27). In this verse the Hebrew verb "created" appears in the singular form. If "let us make man" indicates a numerical plurality, it would be followed in the NEXT verse by, "And they created man in their image." Obviously, the plural form is used in the same way as in the divine appellation 'Elohim, to indicate the all-inclusiveness of God's attributes of authority and power, the plurality of majesty. It is customary for one in authority to speak of himself as if he were a plurality. Hence, Absalom said to Ahithophel, "Give your counsel what we shall do" (2 Samuel 16:20). The context shows that he was seeking advice for himself' yet he refers to himself as "we" (see also Ezra 4:16-19).

There is another possible reason for the use of the plural on the part of God, and that is to manifest His humility. God addresses Himself to the angels and says to them, "Let us make man in our image." It is not that He invites their help, but as a matter of modesty and courtesy, God associates them with the creation of man. This teaches us that a great man should act humbly and consult with those lower than him. It is not unusual for God to refer to His heavenly court (angels) as "us," as we see in Isaiah 6:8, "And I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, 'Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?'" Although God often acts without assistance, He makes His intentions known to His servants. Thus, we find "Shall I conceal from Abraham that which I am doing" (Genesis 18:17); "He made known His ways to Moses, His doings to the children of Israel" (Psalms 103:7); "For the Lord God will do nothing without revealing His counsel to His servants the prophets" (Amos 3:7).

A misconception similar to that concerning Genesis 1:27 is held by trinitarian Christians with reference to the verse, "Come, let us go down, and there confound their language" (Genesis 11:7). Here, too, the confounding of the language is related in verse 9 to God alone, ". . . because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth." In this verse the Hebrew verb "did" appears in the singular form. Also, the descent is credited in verse 5 to the Lord alone, "And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower." In this verse the Hebrew verb "came down" appears in the singular form. If a doctrine of plurality of persons is to be based on the grammatical form of words, the frequent interchanging of the singular and the plural should vitiate such an attempt as being without foundation or merit. We may safely conclude that the Bible refutes most emphatically every opinion, which deviates from the concept of an indivisible unity of God.

Chapter 45 of Isaiah, using the Tetragrammaton, unequivocally asserts that the Lord alone is the creator and ruler of all things in the universe. The six uses of 'Elohim in this chapter (verses 3, 5, 14, 15, 18, 21) show that the term 'Elohim is synonymous with the Tetragrammaton, and that both epithets refer to the absolute one-and-only God. The singularity of God, expressed in the first-person singular in verse 12, clearly shows who is meant by the phrase, "Let us create man in our image": "I, even I, have made the earth, and created man upon it; I, even My hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded."

As for the Messiah, of him God says, "And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even My servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. And I the Lord will be their God, and My servant David prince among them; I the Lord have spoken" (Ezekiel 34:23-24). The Lord alone will be worshipped as God, while the Messiah, as the servant of God, lives with the people. God and the Messiah are not and cannot be equals, for it is God alone who gives the Messiah power to rule in the capacity of His appointed servant.

Papa Frank said...

Use your own mind BK. It is equally limiting to say that God CANNOT have a body as to say that God has a body. God reveals Himself however He wishes in order to accomplish His will.

Bar Kochba said...

You answer this: Can G-d create a rock so heavy that He can't lift it?

Papa Frank said...

If not being able to lift the rock was according to His will the answer would be yes.

Papa Frank said...

God does not worry about limiting Himself as you do because there is none like Him. Can God destroy the world by flood? No, because God limited Himself in that manner with a promise. Can God forget His people Israel? No, because God has limited Himself with an eternal promise. Limits do not define nor confine the power or ability or presence of God even though there are seemingly many limits that God has placed on Himself.

Papa Frank said...

Are you greater than God that you can limit Him to never manifesting Himself or to not being able to be fully God and fully man at the same time?

Yehudi01 said...

BK, help me understand something a little better...Jason brought up a good point regarding the 10 Sefirot, which describe the various aspects of G-d's nature. Can you explain the principles behind them for me? If you want to email me, you can.

Bar Kochba said...

The Kabbalah behind the Sefirot is beyond the scope of this discussion or even of my understanding. A good resource for learning about Kabbalah would be http://www.kabbalaonline.org/ or inner.org. The ikar ha'ikarim, fundamental point to remember is that any sort of division or multiplicity in G-d is an illusion, based on our false and limited understanding of reality. The ultimate truth is that EIN OD MILVADO- there is none other than Him. HaShem is the One and the Only, Unique and Indivisible. The end. Period.

Papa Frank said...

I have answered your question. Are you going to answer mine?

Ralph said...

on August 19, 2008 at 8:24 PM
Bar Kochba said...
"You answer this: Can G-d create a rock so heavy that He can't lift it?"

Which is a purely rhetorical question, one without answer.
It is in similar vein to:-
'What happens when an irresistable force meets with an immovable object?"

Yehudi01 said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Ralph said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Bar Kochba said...

I will not allow missionizing under any form at this blog. Yehudi, the goyyim now gloat. What a chillul HaShem.

Ve'lamalshinim al tehi tikvah...

Bar Kochba said...

You hold that G-d cannot oppose something that He has stated in His Torah. I have quoted where the Torah says that G-d has no form, and that He is not a man. Therefore, He cannot break His own laws.

Papa Frank said...

A little bit desperate aren't you? Your childishness is shining bright when you delete the thoughts of a Jewish brother. Are Jewish children taught to disrespect their elders like this?

Papa Frank said...

Yehudi01 did not missionize he told his honest opinion and stated that he did not want to missionize. Your fear only confirms and does not refute.

Yehudi01 said...

I am, at this point, willing to "shake hands and part friends." G-d bless you and your family, Avi. You are welcome over at my blog anytime...I won't even delete your comments.

Bar Kochba said...

I have no fear. Really, my problem is not so much at Yehudi's "revelations" but at Ralph's "Hallelujah!". That is the essence of why Christians want Jews to convert: it validates their lies by having the very people who brought G-d to the world and first came up with the concept of the messiah accept them. I almost cried when I saw yours and Jungle Mom's comments of Notzri01's site. Such apostasy makes the goyyim gloat and desecrates G-d's name.

Feel proud that the Jewish nation is now one fifteen-millionth smaller.

Bar Kochba said...

And Frank, do not condescend to me. I am not a child and falsehood is wrong no matter who says it. And FYI there is no commandment to rise before a wicked person, an apostate and an idolater... if such a situation would present itself, theoretically speaking, of course.

Papa Frank said...

And yet you have condescended to Yehudi01 by deleting his post although you woke up this morning calling him your brother and being willing to stand beside him and defend Israel. I called you a child because you are acting like one. When you become a man you will put away childish things. Call me what you want and despise me but Yehudi01 does not deserve your hate-speak. Guess what? I woke up this morning willing to stand beside Yehudi01 and die and I will go to bed the same way. If he chooses to become a buddhist in another year I will stand beside him then as well. That's what MEN for their friends!!!

Papa Frank said...

And by the way, my happiness and rejoicing is not for me it's for him. He obviously is having a life changing moment and is ecstatic. His decision is not about you it is about him. While you condemn him and call him names on what is obviously an important day for him I chose to rejoice with him. It's called backing your friends.

Bar Kochba said...

Frankie, how did I become friends with Yehudi? Because we both shared a love for HaShem and Judaism. Now that is gone. Can you not understand from where I am coming? To me, Yehudi (or Notzri, now) has abandonned the Jewish people and betrayed us to the forces of Esav. Now, the goyyim see that Israel is ready to give up its heritage. The Redemption has been postponed (may G-d have mercy). Just by saying that he has accepted JC is missionizing, as it leads others to wonder why he did so.

I do not hate Notzri01 at all. You would know from the e-mail that I wrote him. (Way to assume). I feel sorry for him but af al pi she'chata, yisrael hu, although he has sinned, he remains a Jew. I will not cut ties from him because I want to know what cause his apostasy and how I can bring him back. I want to defend Am Yisrael from this sort of thing.

Frank, we're going in circles here.

Bar Kochba said...

And if his life changing moment was that he should become an atheist? And he was ecstatic? You would be singing a different tune.

This situation only came about because he did not guard himself well enough. He associated too much with xians, with idolaters, is married to a Messianic who brought them into his house, took money from xians (which is against halacha) and all the while read their sites. He did not build a fence around the Torah and his heart has now led him astray.

Papa Frank said...

Frankie, how did I become friends with Yehudi? Because we both shared a love for HaShem and Judaism. Now that is gone. Can you not understand from where I am coming?


He STILL has a love for HaShem and Judaism. The only thing gone is you. I understand that you are upset, livid even. Can you not understand that if he believes that Yeshua is the Messiah that he grieves for his own people who have turned their backs on their Messiah? (don't take that as proof that he's the Messiah but rather as the perspective that Yehudi01 is coming from) How hard do you think this was for him as he certainly KNEW the response that would ensue? He acted in courage hoping for you to understand and accept him and agree to disagree. If you want to persuade him that he is wrong I think that is great. That is acting as a friend. If you want to call him names and spread that he is apostate and accuse him then as his friend we will certainly tangle as I will defend him even as I would defend you. I have defended you in the past at your other blog.

Bar Kochba said...

I find it offensive that he still pretends that what he believes is Jewish. If he had the courage to just come out and say that know he was a CHRISTian as he believed in CHRIST then my response would be different. I just wanted all Jews to be aware of his beliefs and where he stands. I do not hate him, nor will I call him names. I still respect him although I believe that he has made an enormous chillul HaShem, desecration of the Name.

Papa Frank said...

That I can respect. Good night BK.

Ralph said...

BK
on August 20, 2008 at 8:46 PM
you said:-
"..the goyyim now gloat."

and I question your use of that word. My Merriam-Webster has this definition:-
" Main Entry:1gloat
Pronunciation:*gl*t
Function:intransitive verb
Etymology:probably of Scandinavian origin; akin to Old Norse glotta to grin scornfully
Date:1676

1 obsolete : to look or glance admiringly or amorously
2 : to observe or think about something with triumphant and often malicious satisfaction, gratification, or delight *gloat over an enemy's misfortune*
–gloater noun
–gloatingly adverb"

I, for one, have never thought of Jews as the enemy but as brothers in Israel, even though I cannot prove descendancy from any of the tribes.
My "Halleluyah" was an expression of joy that another individual had begun to discover the truth.

you also said on August 20, 2008 at 10:39 PM ".. the very people who brought G-d to the world and first came up with the concept of the messiah.."
The Jews "brought G-d into the world"?? surely you can't believe that in your heart. It was G-d who brought himself into the world for love of those He had created, mankind, including the nation of Israel. The Jews had nothing to do with it. If it hadn't been for Abraham, a man who was not a Jew but described as a friend of G-d, none of us would probably exist today.
Get a light, BK.

In all seriousness, consider what G-d told Moses, a Levite,:-
"Exo 32:9 And the LORD said unto Moses: 'I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people.
Exo 32:10 Now therefore let Me alone, that My wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them; and I will make of thee a great nation.'
Exo 32:11 And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said: 'LORD, why doth Thy wrath wax hot against Thy people, that Thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand?"
(e-Sword Tanach - JPS)

With all due respect, I think your religious leaders give themselves, and their followers, excessive credit.

Yehudi01 said...

Ralph, please do not speak negatively of the rabbis.

Bar Kochba said...

Like the great Rebbe Yeshua, right?

Bar Kochba said...

The rabbis are only "serpents, broods of vipers". They were hypocrites and liars. Good thing that Rebbe Yeshua sorted that one out.

Papa Frank said...

Now look at WHY Yeshua called these specific rabbis serpents and a brood of vipers. This was not his opinion of all rabbis and his LOVE was for the Jewish people that the leaders and rulers were not shepherding but rather lording their positions over them.

Papa Frank said...

This is the actual circumstances from the book of Matthew surrounding Yeshua condemning them:

13"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.[c]

15"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

16"Woe to you, blind guides! You say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.' 17You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18You also say, 'If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.' 19You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.

23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

25"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

27"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

29"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!

33"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.

37"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'[d]"

Papa Frank said...

Incidentally, I realize that you do not accept the New Testament but I have quoted it here to give the circumstance upon which these words were given.

Ralph said...

Yehudi01
on August 21, 2008 at 8:27 PM
you said:-
"Ralph, please do not speak negatively of the rabbis."

Was this because I commented "With all due respect, I think your religious leaders give themselves, and their followers, excessive credit."