Wednesday, August 27, 2008

The Prince of Darkness Exposed

Since the beginning of time, mankind has grappled universally with theodicy, the question of why bad things happen to good people. To solve this dilemma, the philosophers of idolatry reasoned that there must be two gods, a good god and an evil god. This dualism held that the good god was the god of light, life and kindness and was thwarted by the evil god who ruled death and darkness. This dualism, evident in the Persian Zoroastrian faith, held that the god of good was locked in a cosmic struggle against his evil adversary. When Christianity spread and many pagans came into the faith, aspects of this dualism was absorbed. Christianity holds that G-d created mankind sinful and weak, in an evil world so corrupt and full of sin that man cannot be good in G-d's sight on his own. Man is not free to choose good over evil but rather needs the sacrifice of Jesus to atone for him. This doctrine holds that G-d is the author of righteousness and perfection and never created evil. Evil is the domain of Satan, who was created by G-d as a good angel yet rebelled against Him and fights Him constantly. Satan is the embodiment of evil, the Adversary and Prince of Darkness who rules the Underworld and the souls of those who do not gain salvation.

Such a theology is completely absent in Judaism. According to the Torah, a man cannot gain salvation through the sacrifice of another but rather through choosing virtue over vice, good over evil. Deuteronomy 30:15 states, "See, I [God] have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil." G-d created free will that man should be able to choose good over evil. G-d bids us to choose life, yet gave us the ability to sin and to do wrong. It is in this context that G-d created the evil inclination, or the yezter harah. Also known as HaSatan (Satan), the yetzer was created by G-d to tempt us and distract us from His service. Satan was created by G-d to serve a specific purpose, of leading people astray that they should overcome it and come closer to G-d, and is His loyal servant. Satan has no power independent of G-d and does not contradict or fight against Him.

In Isaiah 45:7, the prophet describes God's creation plan when he reports that,

I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.

Good and evil, harsh and cruel are in the hands of G-d and G-d alone. The translators of the Christian New International Version (NIV) Bible recognized that this verse is contradictory to the Church's teachings and translated the Hebrew word 'rah' (evil) as disaster. This is meant to make the point less easily understood. It is not just hurricanes or disease that G-d creates, but sin and immorality were created by Him so that we should reject them and gain salvation. Satan can be compared to a court prosecutor. He has an unpleasant job but rather than being wicked himself, he wants the good of the court system.

Satan is one of many malachim mentionned in the Bible. The Hebrew word for angel, malach, means messenger, and that is precisely what Satan is. Never once in the entire Torah is there an example of an angel rebelling against G-d or refusing to carry out His commands, especially not Satan. That Satan is not an enemy of G-d is shown many times over in the Torah. When the snake (representing mankind's evil inclination) was punished by G-d, never once did it object to its sentence. Nowhere is this more evident than in the book of Job. In the first chapter of Job, Satan appears with other angels before God and argues that Job's righteousness would quickly disappear upon torment and loss. Satan then requests from God the chance to test Job's virtue. The Almighty grants this request, but He meticulously outlines for Satan what he may and may not do when putting Job to the test. Satan obediently follows G-d's commands. Job is immediately put to the test and, by the third chapter, begins to struggle. He questions his Maker as to why he was created and, in a moment of despair, wishes aloud that he had perished in his mother's womb. Still, by the end of this unparalleled biblical narrative, Job's virtue prevails over Satan's unyielding torment. Satan had to be given G-d's permission before beginning his persecution of Job.

To state that there exists some sort of Adversary, a god of evil, independent of HaShem is to flirt with idolatry and pagan ideas. There is no power besides G-d. This argument cuts to the heart of Christianity. Mankind need not be condemned to sin and punishment. Rather, G-d gave us the ability for personal triumph over evil. By keeping the Torah, man receives salvation from G-d. As our great sage Maimonides taught: "One should see the world, and see himself as a scale with an equal balance of good and evil. When he does one good deed the scale is tipped to the good - he and the world is saved. When he does one evil deed the scale is tipped to the bad - he and the world is destroyed." A person cannot rely on the sacrifice of others as it has no effect on his atonement. Only by rejecting evil in favour of G-d's path can a person achieve righteousness. Choose life.


Papa Frank said...

Thank you for answering my question here. This is a teaching that I have not heard before. I will take some time and study out what you have presented here. Upon first reading let me first set you straight on one matter. Christianity does not teach nor believe that God created mankind sinful and weak, in an evil world so corrupt and full of sin that man cannot be good in G-d's sight on his own. Christianity teaches that God created the world perfect and just right. Sin did not enter the world until man used his free will to choose to do what God had commanded him not to do.

Bar Kochba said...

Yet it teaches that man's efforts are not enough to earn salvation. He is condemned to sin unless he accepts Jesus. And that's why the Jewish view of Satan is problematic.

Mad Zionist said...

Papa Frank I tried to post this to you on Yehudi01's blasphemy site but he has enabled comment moderation and will likely not publish what I said.

Papa Frank: I am thrilled to learn that you are openly a Christian. Now, to explain why I am deeply offended by what Yehuda01is doing, let's look at it from the reverse.

Let's say I started up a new website called "Christians against Jesus", and proceeded to declare that Jesus was a myth, never even lived, and that the way to be a proper Christian would be to reject the New Testament and wait for the Messiah to come while strictly practicing Jewish law.

Would that misrepresentation of Christianity bother you? What if I preached my new beliefs to practicing Christians, telling them that they need to stop following the lie and accept my "true Christianity". What if I started succeeding at convincing Christians that my "Christian" beliefs were the one true beliefs and began converting them to my "Christianity".

I hope you now better understand why I've got a big problem with what is going on here.

Bar Kochba said...

Amen, MZ! I tried to demonstrate this with an old post on my other blog called Christians for Allah. Messianic Judaism is offensive and deceptive.

Papa Frank said...

Madze -- He left the comment and I have answered it over there.

Papa Frank said...

Ok , BK -- let's get down to the meat of what I do not understand concerning Judaism then. I do believe that my sin condemns me without the sacrifice of Jesus. No amount of me following the law will help me to not be separated from God. I admit that part is true. I also believe that by following the law you, as a Jew, would receive eternal life and not be separated from God. However, the promise given to the Jewish people was a plain and simple contract. "IF you do this THEN I will do this." You know the promise that God gave and so I won't put it in here. It clearly said that you had to do not some of it but ALL of it. Have you? If not, which I'm sure is the case, then the promise is null and void. Not that the promise is not true or not still in effect but rather that no person has been able to hold up their end of the contract. How do you know that the promise is for you given that you have not upheld your side of the contract?

Bar Kochba said...

Pops, don't you know that there ain't no such thing as a free lunch? In this regard, I find the Christian approach to be (I really don't mean this to be offensive or condescending, really) immature. Instant forgiveness is nonsense. Like any relationship, forgiveness and salvation with HaShem requires honesty, dedication and commitment. Its not just about believing but about keeping the Torah to the best of your ability.

A human being cannot keep all 613 commandments. Some can only be performed by a man, some by a woman, some by a Kohen, a king, some by those who live in Israel and fully one third of the commandments are dependent on the existence of the Holy Temple. G-d does not expect the impossible. (If one cannot perform a commandment, it is considered like he did if he studies the appropriate laws.)

Deut. 30:

"11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not too hard for thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say: 'Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?' 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say: 'Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?' 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it."

I ask you: why would a kind G-d give His creations an impossible law to follow and essentially condemn them to sin?

And a second question: Where does the Torah mention belief in the messiah as a prerequisite for salvation?

Papa Frank said...

That is the whole point of the law. The law is there to teach us right from wrong AND to teach us how dependent we are on God. Read the promise God gave at Sinai and tell me if the language there allows for anything less than absolute adherence for the contract to be fulfilled. Also, I would challenge the idea that the Jews at that time distinguished 613 laws that they were to follow. I just don't believe that to be so. As for Christianity and instant forgiveness being immature I can understand where you would get that view but would disagree. The reason is that like so many Christians you have looked on the Christian idea of salvation or redemption with the wrong focus. Many people think that being "saved" is the end or the completion or the goal. This is not what true Christianity teaches. This is the teaching of Christianity: "For by grace are you saved through faith and not of yourselves this is the gift of God. Not by works lest any man should boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works which He has prepared in advance for us to do." Salvation is not a goal or an end. Salvation is a starting point or a beginning. Because I have been reconciled to God through the blood of Jesus I then can begin to do the good works that God prepared for me to be doing. I don't do good works in order to receive favor but rather in order to walk in the truth of who I am and fulfill what God has prepared my life for. That is a great responsibility and not a free ride.

Bar Kochba said...

But the Torah says that no one can be saved by the sacrifice of another. I posted this on Daniel's blog, regarding sin and forgiveness. It is very relevant here.

Christians claim that no forgiveness is possible without sacrifice and blood. This ignores the fact that two other forms of atonement were given in the Temple: the flour offering and the incense offering, both of which provided atonement without blood. However, a sin offering (known as a korban chatat) only atoned for the most insignificant form of sin: unintentional sin. The Torah teaches this fundamental principle in Numbers 15:27-31.

If a person sins unintentionally, then he shall offer a one-year-old female goat for a sin offering. The priest shall make atonement before the LORD for the person who goes astray when he sins unintentionally, making atonement for him that he may be forgiven . . . . The person who does anything defiantly, whether he is native or an alien, that one is blaspheming the LORD; and that person shall be cut off from among his people, because he has despised the word of the LORD and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt shall be on him.

That means that Jesus's death could not atone for any form of sin if a person did not sincerely repent. According to the Torah, no person can die for another.

The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. Deuteronomy 24:16 (KJV)

In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge. Jeremiah 31:29-30 (KJV)

Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Ezekiel 18:4 (KJV)

In the pagan world, child sacrifices were offered to idols. Children represented purity, a lamb never to have sinned, which would be slaughtered and atone for sin (children were offered to Molech). Repeatedly the Torah warns the Jewish people not to follow the customs of the nations surrounding them and offer human sacrifices. There is not ONE place in the Torah were human sacrifice is condoned. G-d says that the sacrifice of children to Molech is abominable.

his message was carefully communicated at Mt. Moriah where Abraham was prepared to offer up his beloved son Isaac as a sacrifice. At that crucial juncture in history when Abraham was ready to sacrifice Isaac, the Almighty admonished him that He did not want the human sacrifice, and directed Abraham to sacrifice the ram caught in the thicket instead. The Almighty's directive -- that he only wanted animal sacrifices rather than human sacrifices -- was immediately understood. This teaching has never departed from the mind and soul of the faithful children of Israel.

Missionaries often quote Leviticus 17:11, which reads, "This is because the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul," to bolster their position. However, the verse specifically says that the sacrifice must be offered on the altar ONLY IN THE TEMPLE. Certainly not at Calvary, outside of Jerusalem, or anywhere else. Jesus was not a kosher animal, was not slaughtered on the altar, was not offered by Kohanim or even Jews and was bruised before being offered (sacrifices must be unblemished).

So does HaShem really desire blood more than anything? Is He a vampire or a cruel man who demands his pound of flesh?

"What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me? Says God. I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed cattle. And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs, or goats. Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your deeds from My sight. Cease to do evil, learn to do good; seek justice, reprove the ruthless, defend the orphan, plead for the widow. Come let us reason together says God 'Though your sins are as scarlet, they will be white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they will be like wool, if you consent and obey..." (Isaiah 1:11-18).

"The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord." (Proverbs 15:8).

"To do righteousness and justice is more acceptable to God than sacrifice." (Proverbs 21:3

"Has God as great a delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken more than the fat of rams." (I Samuel 15:22)

"With what shall I come to God and bow myself before the Lord on high? Shall I come to Him with burnt offerings, with yearling calves? Does God take delight in thousands of rams, in ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I present my firstborn for my rebellious acts, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does God require of you but to do justice, to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God" (Micah 6:6-8)

So what does HaShem want?

"Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts, and let him return to God, and He will have compassion on him; and to our God. For He will abundantly pardon." (Isaiah 55:7)

"And if My people who are called by My name humble themselves and pray, and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." (II Chronicles 7:14).

"But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die. All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has practiced he shall live...When a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life. Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you (Ezekiel 18:21- 22,27,30).

"By loving kindness and truth iniquity is atoned for..." (Proverbs 16:6).

"If you return to God you will be restored; if you remove unrighteousness far from your tent...then you will delight in God..." (Job 22:23-27).

“God says he will accept burnt offerings and grain offerings, I will not accept them and the offerings of your fat animals I will not look upon – let justice and righteous run down like water, that is what I want”. Amos 5

In our days without a sacrificial system, prayer replaces animal offerings. Hosea 14:2-3 states,

Take words with you, and return to the LORD. Say to Him, "Take away all iniquity; receive us graciously, for we will render for bulls the offering of our lips."

n fact, in Hosea 3:4-5, the prophet foretold with divine exactness that the nation of Israel would not have a sacrificial system during the last segment of Jewish history until the messianic age. Hosea 3:4-5 reads,

. . . for the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days.

G-d demands righteousness, justice, obedience and goodness, not blood. In I Kings 8:46-50, King Solomon gives a speech inaugurating the Holy Temple. He says that some day the Jews will be exiled out of their land and will pray fervently for G-d to redeem them. The Temple will no longer stand and they will have no sacrifices to offer. During their exile they would fervently desire to repent of their sins. King Solomon then declares that they would face Jerusalem from their exile, confess their sins, "and God will hear their prayers in heaven, and forgive them for all their transgressions." No cross and no dead messiah. Only repentance.

(Jewish repentance not being accepted 40 years before the Temple was mentioned. Rabbi Singer deals with this issue at length at Check it out)

Papa Frank said...

All of these offering were incomplete and had to be offered over and over. None of them were good enough because what God wanted was for the law to be fulfilled in its entirety. Jesus fulfilled that law completely. He was the one who could become the ultimate end all sacrifice in the true temple in heaven.

Papa Frank said...

Don't give me cut and paste arguments give me your own words and what you think.

Bar Kochba said...

This is not cut and paste. I spent twenty minutes finding all of the verses and writing this comment. Thank you very much.

But if Jesus was the last and final sacrifice, why is the Temple sacrificial system coming back? And why does G-d say that He prefers obedience to blood?

Papa Frank said...

If you spent 20 minutes writing that post and thinking for yourself instead of just cut and paste why was it posted only 8 minutes after my comment and have this link at the bottom:

(Jewish repentance not being accepted 40 years before the Temple was mentioned. Rabbi Singer deals with this issue at length at Check it out)

Think for yourself!!!

Ralph said...

"The Prince of Darkness Exposed"

As Horatio Hornblower was once heard to say:-
"Not worth the gunpowder!"

גילוי said...

Papa Frank,

Please re-read your post before you read this.

Then read Deuteronomy 30 (BK was close, but started too late in the chapter).

Verse 1 says that we will do right, and then wrong, and then right again, all while doing the commandments of the Torah. Our return to Israel is related to that return to Torah. First we will return a little, which will merit the ingathering, and then G-d will trigger the rest of the return to Torah.

Moses knew this and he gave it to us as prophecy.

Bar Kochba said...

Frank, because I posted it originally at Daniel's and then reposted it here. And the link at the bottom os to another article.


Papa Frank said...

You're the one found out and I'm the jerk. OK.

Bar Kochba said...

What is your problem? I wrote this. The end. I feel like a student brought before the teacher for plagiarizing. I didn't so drop it.

Can you address the post? Or would you prefer to accuse me off plagiarizing (don't forget that Daniel's last article was entirely copy-paste from Brown but I guess if you plagiarize for Jesus then that's okay).

I'm ready to take back the jerk thing and drop this. Just apologize.

Papa Frank said...

OK -- back to the matter at hand then.

All of these offering were incomplete and had to be offered over and over. None of them were good enough because what God wanted was for the law to be fulfilled in its entirety. Jesus fulfilled that law completely. He was the one who could become the ultimate end all sacrifice in the true temple in heaven.

Mad Zionist said...

Gang, the post over at the apostate's site confirms waht we suspected all along: he is a Christian fraud.

I posted this response (we'll see if he "poofs" it again like he's done to three of my other comments that make him look bad):

Christian said: "So how can I know the truth? Simple. Only one of these two faiths is based on the power of God while the other has been built on the traditions of men. There really is quite a difference!"

You are correct in saying there really is a difference between Christianity and Judaism. To reject the sanhedrin is to reject oral law as it was passed down from God to Moses, Moses to Joshua, Joshua to the Judges, the Judges to the Prophets, and the Prophets to the Great Assembly (Sanhedrin).

You are absolutely, positively NOT a Jew if you don't accept this sequence of transmission. By rejecting the "laws of men" or "Rabbis" or "Talmud" or "Sanhedrin", or however you choose to label it, you have rejected Judaism.

Thank you for proving what I suspected all along. You are not a Jew, you are a Christian. This fact is now irrefutable.

Papa Frank said...

Madze -- why must you insist on slandering him? Anyone who really knows Daniel KNOWS that he has been an orthodox Jew and that he is not some sort of christian in disguise. I understand if you have a significant problem with his views now but could you deal with his views and not with calling him a liar and a fraud? You come across as a reasonable person to me and my friend nanc has good things to say about you. Am I being unreasonable with my request?

Mad Zionist said...

I love Nanc, she is an honest Christian who is a friend both of myself and the Jews. I am pointing out that Daniel is a Christian, whether he was born a Jew or not doesn't change this fact. He has converted, and would not count in a minion at any legitimate shul.

When he admits that he has converted, that he is a Christian, that he is not practicing Judaism, I will stop hammering away. Until that day, though, I will not relent one lick.

Papa Frank said...

Madze -- Would you agree that I, as a friend of Daniel and a friend of the Jews as well, should indeed defend him though? Or do you think I am wrong to do so?

Mad Zionist said...

Papa, if you are indeed a friend of Daniel I would like to respectfully ask you to see if you can persuade him not to represent himself as Jewish anymore. It is the only sticking point I have with him. If he would identify himself to be a paleo-Christian, or a Christian Zionist, or anything that is Christian, I think it would be cathartic for him, and allow him to make peace with us.

I am sad that he chose to take a different path, but I would respect him a whole lot more if he'd stop masquerading around as a Jew. If he wants to still follow many of the Jewish ways of life, well that's fine, but I can't tell you strongly enough how offensive it is that he is presenting his Jesus worshiping views as Jewish views.

I think deep down inside you know I'm right. He just can't have his cake and eat it to. I respect Christian values in many cases, and find them to often be our strongest allies, but the line has to be drawn at a certain point and Daniel is over that line.

He can let the cross be his symbol if he likes, but he can't pretend that that symbol is a Jewish one, too. Please help me with this, Papa..

Papa Frank said...

Madze -- please realize that it would be an unreasonable request of me to ask someone who is a strong grown man and has lived as a proud zionistic Jew for so many years to view himself as something other than a Jew. He was born a Jew to Jewish parents and has lived and continues to live the life of a Jew following the rituals and festivals and prayers and sabbath requirements. Could I ask you to stop viewing yourself as a Jew? Is this not hypocritical of you since someone who was an atheist would still be looked upon as a Jew because of their birth? They would deny even the existence of God and would still be seen as a Jew. Does that not seem out of line and inconsistent? I will leave a comment at your blog with my email address. Since you have moderation please delete it and don't display it. I'd like to continue this discussion with a little more privacy.

גילוי said...

Papa Frank,

It is not your prerogative to define what an orthodox Jew is, it is ours. He is not an orthodox Jew, and by orthodox standards, he is not counted as a Jew at current.

Papa Frank said...

I am not attempting to say he IS an orthodox Jew. He is claiming to be a Messianic Jew. I am saying that he lived and believed as an orthodox Jew in the past and has only recently become a Messianic Jew. He was not some sort of missionary in disguise.

Bar Kochba said...

Shavua tov everyone!

Papa Frank: If Jesus was the final sacrifice, why do the prophets say that the Temple sacrificial system is returning?

And what have you to say of the pesukim (verses) which state that no person can die for the sins of another?

And that Jesus was disqualified from being a sacrifice under Jewish law?

Answer these please.

גילוי said...

Papa Frank,

I know that you are not putting that forth about now. But you are putting it forth about the past. You are not in a position to accurately define whether or not this person was an orthodox Jew.

Now that I see that you are reading my comments, please reply to my prior comment where I referred you to Deuteronomy 30.

Papa Frank said...

I'm not sure what your actual question or point is about Deuteronomy 30. Could you please outline them for me. My opinion of Daniel having been an orthodox Jew is from my point of view from having many discussions with him and so you are right in that I am unqualified to make that judgement as I am not an authority. My apology. I would also then offer that you would not be in a position to say that he was not as well. I do not say this to be combative or to say anything about you just to say that you do not know his heart or the lifestyle he led.

גילוי said...

Papa Frank,

Regarding Deuteronomy 30:

You said that once Israel failed the covenant, it was made void. I brought a prophecy of Moses showing that it was predicted that we would fail the covenant, be exiled, and then eventually return to G-d by way of the original covenant. All this is in Deuteronomy 28 and 30, but can be gleaned from 30 alone. The theory about the Torah being true up to 30CE and then being replaced does not stand up to the prophecies given by G-d to Moses.

From what I have gathered from the different blogs, he would not have been defined as an orthodox Jew even before his apostasy.

Papa Frank said...

He had a blog before his current blog that is no longer around. It went back a couple of years and you would have found it much more like BK's other blog. Or if you look back a year or so on BK's other blog you will find examples of his thinking. I was not alone in viewing him as an orthodox Jew.

As for Deuteronomy 30 please allow me to clarify. I said that the promise was void. That is because the contract was not fulfilled on man's part even though God remains faithful to his side. I do not think that the covenant is void (that would be replacement theology which I am very much opposed to) but rather that a broken contract is no good. I don't see any language in the original promise that would denote that anything less than complete adherence to the law would suffice for fulfilling man's side of the contract. I believe that the covenant is to this day fully in place and if there is someone that follows the law perfectly that they would receive the promise given. However, I would contend that is the point of the law in the first place. The law is there to teach us right from wrong and to show us our need for a sacrifice. That need was answered with Yeshua.

גילוי said...

Papa Frank,

You repeated what you said before, but it seems you didn't read Deuteronomy 30 before writing.

Moses, the greatest of all prophets, predicted what you speak of, that Israel won't live up to the bargain, and will be in exile (see Deut 28:64). He then goes on to prophesy Israel's partial repentance which will bring us back to the Land of Israel, followed by complete repentance. All this is based on Torah alone, no other covenants or contracts.

Regarding defining as orthodox Jew, it is implied through his blog that he is married to someone defined as a messianic Jew. How can I even fathom that this be permitted by the Jewish, Orthodox Law? She could certainly not be trusted to maintain family purity laws, kosher food, keeping Shabbat, which are all the basics of an Orthodox Jewish home.

Bar Kochba said...

Papa, one cannot have their cake and eat it too. Elijah the Prophet asked Israel how long they will waver between the two sides. Either Judaism is correct so be or a Jew. Or Christianity is correct and be a Christian. There is no in-between. One who believes in CHRIST is a CHRISTian.

Imagine if a Muslim were to suddenly "discover the Truth of" Jsus. Would it be correct to call his faith "Messianic Islam"? Would he be a "complete Muslim"? What if he wants to keep the laws of Islam as well? Inconsistent, right?

Daniel is a Christian of Jewish origin, but certainly no Jew.

Papa Frank said...

BK -- Elijah did not say anything about Judaism there he said "if God is God then serve him and if Baal is God then serve him." It was not a choice of Judaism or Christianity. Jews are God's chosen people but they are by no means the only people that God loves and that God is at work in. I just don't see how you can say that Daniel is no longer a Jew. You would claim an atheist who did not believe in God at all to be a Jew but not Daniel who was born to Jewish parents and loves God with his heart, soul, and mind. How can this be?

Papa Frank said...

Deuteronomy 30:

9 Then the LORD your God will make you most prosperous in all the work of your hands and in the fruit of your womb, the young of your livestock and the crops of your land. The LORD will again delight in you and make you prosperous, just as he delighted in your fathers, 10 if you obey the LORD your God and keep his commands and decrees that are written in this Book of the Law and turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

Once again, this is a simple contract. I will do this IF you do this. In the next couple of chapters it foretells of how that contract will be broken. This was an everlasting covenant and I believe it to be still in place even as I write here but that means that the conditions are everlasting as well. God KNEW that the people would not be able to hold up their end and Moses knew as well. Moses himself, though the greatest prophet, could not even enter the land because of his actions.

Papa Frank said...

Could both of you please explain to me the difference between being of Jewish origin and being a Jew. Maybe it is your view of these definitions that is the difference between what my view of Daniel is and your view of what he is.

גילוי said...

Maybe that is how you can ignore this prophecy... by calling it not a prophecy. Deuteronomy 11:13 starts out "And it will be *if*" whereas Deuteronomy 30:1 starts out "And it will be, for it will come upon you", and in verse 10 "for you will listen".

The word is semi-ambiguous, but determinable by the context, if you read the original.

No matter. Chapter 28 refers to the downfall of Judea to the hands of the Romans, as can be shown from certain proof verses, which eliminates the possibility of "if" from chapter 30.

Verse 1 - After all the things in chapter 28 happen, you will consider them in your heart.
Verse 2 - You will return to Hashem.
Verse 3/4 - Hashem will return you to the land of Israel.
Verse 5 - You will be successful in the land beyond your forefathers.
Verse 6 - G-d will circumcise our hearts, symbolizing a complete return.
Verse 7 - Revenge upon the enemies of Israel.

Moral of the story is that the return from the exile itself proves the lack of validity to the Christian claim regarding the Torah.

Papa Frank said...

As a return has not yet happened how do you know that the return is not a return of Jews who have accepted the Messiah Yeshua. The acceptance of the Messiah may be included in the circumcision of the hearts of the Jewish people. I am not saying that this is the clear message of this text just wondering how you KNOW that the rejection of Yeshua is part of the returning instead of being that the rejection of Yeshua being a part of the hard heartedness of the people that lead to being dispersed.

Bar Kochba said...

Being of Jewish origin would be someone who comes from a Jewish family but accepts another faith or religious belief. The biological link to their people cannot be broken but they cannot count for a minyan, and their wine and food is not kosher. Their belief is not Jewish and they do not follow the Jewish faith.

No one is arguing (at least if we take his word) that Daniel is form a Jewish family and is ethnically Jewish. But belief in Jsus puts him outside of the pale of Jewish belief and is unacceptable. He no longer practices Judaism but Christianity with Jewish overtones. It is deceptive in that it claims to be Jewish yet is rejected by all Jewish leaders of every denomination. And that is our problem.

Papa Frank said...

What is a minyan and why would his food or wine not be kosher if he followed Jewish kosher dietary laws?

Bar Kochba said...

To pray the full service, one needs a prayer quorum of ten men, or a minyan. A person who believes in Jsus, which under Jewish law is idolatry, would not count in a minyan.

Wine cannot be made opened by a gentile or an idolater. Neither are certain foods (wine, bread, olive oil or any sort of food which one would find on a king's table) able to be cooked by goyyim or ovdei avodah zarah (idolaters). This is known as bishul akum (akum is an acronym for 'worshippers of stars and constellations).

If he were a shochet (a kosher butcher), a mohel (one who performs the circumcisions) or a sofer (scribe) for example, his services would be disqualified. A holy object or deed cannot come by way of idolatry.

This isn't a matter of discussion. This is Jewish Law which you may not accept but observant Jews do.

Papa Frank said...

I have no arguments with your descriptions as they are the rules of your religion. Thank you for educating me on them.

גילוי said...

Papa Frank,

We have an old tradition brought in the Talmud that just as 600,000 left Egypt, so to in the future, the ingathering of the exilesz will have 600,000. This was reached initially in 1948.

The beginning of prophecy was without your messiah (chapter 28's curses start a good 60 years before his birth with the Roman occupation), when most Christians would agree that the proper way for a Jew to live is according to the rules of the Torah. Moses definitely doesn't imply that in order to come back to Israel we will need to adopt a new belief.

Papa Frank said...

Am i correct in thinking that you believe the Jews to already be gathered again in the land of the covenant?So then, in your opinion, what should the Jewish people be looking for next in regards to the Messiah? Thank you for being so patient with all my questions.

גילוי said...

B'Kizur nimratz (in extreme shorthand)

Ingathering has stages, 600,000 is an initial stage, next is majority of all Jews, final is all Jews.

The character of Moshiach ben Yosef is "next" on the list.

See my blog for more as this is off-topic here.

גילוי said...

My blog is written for a Jewish audience and therefore you will probably not get everything because it assumes a certain knowledge base. It is the 4th one linked on the right panel of this blog. HaKeitz HaMeguleh (The Revealed End)