Wednesday, June 11, 2008

Ramming Your Jesus Down Our Throats


The "persecuted" Church in Israel plays the victim shamelessly in order to advance its spiritual assault on the Jewish faith. When a church suffered slighty damage after some of the wiring caught fire, the eternal victims were quick to blame "Jewish extremists". After a bomb injured the son of a pastor who had been fatwaed by the Mufti of Jerusalem, these same "victims" accused, without a shred of evidence, Orthodox Jews as plotting to kill Christians, although Fatah later took credit for the blast. Israel today is in the midst of a life and death struggle for its Jewish soul, with 3000 years of history and tradition on one side and billions of dollars in Christian aid on the other. Christian spiritual warriors have committed themselves to baptizing the Jewish nation, whether we like it or not.

Jews for Jesus's mission stated goal is "to make the messiahship of Jesus an unavoidable issue to our Jewish people worldwide." It has committed itself to forcing itself onto the Jewish people (an unavoidable issue) and imposing their religion on us. Jews for Jesus has just begun a multi-billion dollar 5 year campaign including bus and billboard advertisements, dedicated to spreading Christianity in Israel. This campaign is so repugnant and offensive to Jews that the bus and billboard compagnies, when notified by counter-missionary groups of the contents of the advertisements, promptly removed them. In short, Jews have no interest in Christianity or Jesus. It simply ain't kosher. A few weeks ago, a drove of missionaries descended uninvited and unwanted on the religious city of Or Yehuda and handed out New Testaments to the particularly vulnerable Ethiopian community. When the spiritual crusaders left, the inhabitants found themselves in possession of heretical and insulting material which they needed to dispose of. The mayor of the town collected this garbage (since it was unwanted) and got rid of it by burning it in a synagogue parking lot. Christians spun this incident out of proportion, describing it as if Jews had led a pogrom through the streets, confiscated Christian Bibles and set them on fire amid great dancing and celebration. They miss the crucial fact that the people of the town had no interest in Christianity, were given material that it contrary to their faith, and resolved to get rid of it the best way possible to ensure that no Jew would be endangered by their contents.

Christians like to cry that the church suffers "harassment" by Orthodox Jews. US foreign policy forbids Israel from outlawing missionary activities. They claim that this would violate their religious "freedom". They fail to notice, however, the nature of Christian harassment. To a Jew, nothing is more offensive than an attempt to steal his soul. When we left the exile behind, we also left behind Christianity and all other foreign belief-systems. Why should a Jew living in the Jewish country be subjected to attempt by foreigners to get him to change his faith? If a missionary attempt is unsolicited and he keeps on pounding the Jew with verse after verse trying to prove that Jesus is messiah, then this is harassment. Subjecting Jews to seeing advertisement in all major newspapers, media and one the road that proclaim the Gospel is harassment. The message of missionaries is clear: Judaism is worthless and Jews are condemned to eternal hellfire unless they accept the saving graces of Jesus Christ. Thanks but no thanks. For two thousand years, the universal concensus of Jews has been that belief in Jesus is not compatible with the Torah. There is no reason for a Jew living in the Jewish state to have to endure Christians trying to baptize him.

Freedom of religion is the freedom to believe whatever you would like, but not to behave however you please. Religious freedom does not permit polygamy, for example. Israel has not said that people are not entitled to believe in Jesus. It has stated, at certain times, that people are not free to persuade others to accept Jesus. While this may sound undemocratic to American Christians and a violation of their rights, it is a right that they do not have. Israel's character is Jewish and anyone who goes there needs to respect that. Freedom of religion ceases when it infrines of someone else's right not to be harassed. The rights of Christians to spread the Gospel in Israel must be limited in order to protect the right of the Jewish citizens of Israel not to have to subjected to conversion attempts. The missionaries are not citizens but come from afar with the only intention of tearing us from our faiths. There is no reason why we should let that happen in our own state.

42 comments:

Safiyyah said...

Ameen!

Papa Frank said...

I must admit that I do not at all understand your fear of Jews hearing of Jesus. I do not in any way condone some of the tactics which you have described of the Jews for Jesus group but I don't really know too much about them. As for the fear though it just is beyond my thinking. Anything fake looks fake when you stand it next to something real. For instance, if you look at a wax apple by itself it looks pretty good but if you set it beside a real apple it pales in comparison. If you believe in Judaism as the absolute truth in the world then why would you be afraid to put it next to anything. If Judaism is the real deal and genuine then everything else will pale by comparison. I believe Jesus to be the real deal and so I don't fear to compare him with anyone or anything. Does any of that make sense to you?

Ralph said...

I think the graphic introduction to your post is somewhat misleading.
"JUDAISM IS ANTI CHRIST"
I understand that the word 'CHRIST' is a description and is derived from the Greek form of the Hebrew 'Messiah', or annointed one, and I don't for one minute think that Judaism is 'anti Messiah'. They, those of Judaism, say they are waiting for him to arrive on the world scene, perhaps within the next decade?
Also the word 'Jesus' is an Anglicized form of the Greek 'Iesou' which in turn is the Greek rendition of the Hebrew 'Yeshua'.
Wouldn't it be more apt to use the heading "JUDAISM IS ANTI YESHUA"? After all, the person in question was a devout, law abiding Jew and his name, in Hebrew, was Yeshua. To some, it still is.

Ralph said...

"When the spiritual crusaders left, the inhabitants found themselves in possession of heretical and insulting material which they needed to dispose of. The mayor of the town collected this garbage (since it was unwanted) and got rid of it by burning it in a synagogue parking lot."

Doesn't the city have a regular trash collection service with facilities to recycle unwanted paper? Does the mayor have his own trash collection truck? I think there is more to this story than what has been told.

Ralph said...

"Israel's character is Jewish...."

Wouldn't it be more apt to say:-"The character of the State of Israel is Jewish..." After all, when it boils down, Judah is not 'Israel', Ephraim and Manasseh are, viz:- "Gen 48:16 the angel who delivers me from all evils, bless these boys, and my name shall be called upon them, and the name of my fathers, Abraam and Isaac; and let them be increased to a great multitude on the earth."

Judah and Israel have been separate entities since the death of King Solomon and have yet to be reunited. Judah and 'Israel' have distinctly different characteristics.

גילוי said...

Ralph,

The sons of Joseph are bound up in Judah. This is part of the redemptive process. To repair the break between Judah and Joseph, it is Moshiach ben Yosef that saves the people of Judah, and Moshiach ben David that saves the people of Joseph.

Ralph said...

גילוי said...
"The sons of Joseph are bound up in Judah."

In what way are they "bound up" when they remain a separate entity known of old as the 'Kingdom of Israel'?
also:-
"it is Moshiach ben Yosef that saves the people of Judah, and Moshiach ben David that saves the people of Joseph."

Are you advocating two separate Messiahs? I see no record of a Messiah from the sons of Joseph, only one who is of the line of David.
also:-
Do you have a short answer as to what the people of Judah and the people of Joseph are to be saved from?

Devash said...

PF---Accusing Jews of christaphobia because they insist on be respected in their own country is on a par with homosexuals who accuse those who oppose their lifestyle as being homophobes. We oppose it because it is wrong, not because we're "afraid" of it. What xians peddle is spiritual poison. It is dangerous, both to Jews and to gentiles. If it weren't such a potent poison would a billion people buy into the Big Lie??? Do you as a xian want your children being taught Islam at school? Why not? Are you afraid of the 'truth'? L'havdil!

Devash said...

Ralph, this idea that American evangelicals are the "lost tribes" who will be accepted alongside Judah when the 'blind' Jews eyes are finally opened to who Yashke "really" is, it's another one of the Big Lies. These people are one of two things. Either they are tradition Eisav, just wanting to grab back the birthright that he legally sold to Ya'akov or they are Erev Rav from among some of the lost tribes that assimilated into xianity centuries ago. The American xian project to peddle Yashke to the Jews which is called "Israel, behold your god" (meaning Yashke, G-d forbid!) is a clue to their spiritual identity since this is precisely what the Erev Rav said to the Jews who'd just left Egypt when they made the golden calf.
Erev Rav among those of the Northern Kingdom were indistinguishable from the Israelites and remained among them even in their assimilation over millenia because their souls were always attracted to the souls of Am Israel. Those of the lost tribes who were hidden amongst American xians have been quietly taken out by the Hand of God over the past almost twenty years and they have quietly rejoined their people through halachic conversion. The prophets are clear on this, that when we are regathered at the End of Days, it is as ONE, indivisible people. You are anticipating something that has already been occurring right under your nose and you didn't see it. This is the way of such spiritually important matters until it is too late for the Other Side to prevent it.

גילוי said...

Ralph,

I said that the idea was complicated.

It hopefully will be the same person, but if our sins cause it, Moshiach ben Yosef will die.

Moshiach ben Yosef is responsible for the physical redemption, Moshiach ben David the spiritual. So Moshiach ben Yosef will redeem us physically, and ensure our physical survival. This can be seen to a large extent in the State of Israel over the last 60 years, but this is not on the level of an individual person.

Ralph said...

גילוי said...

"I said that the idea was complicated."

I guess just as complicated as you want to make it. I prefer the KISS principle.
also:-

"This can be seen to a large extent in the State of Israel over the last 60 years, but this is not on the level of an individual person."

Are you then saying that, as an individual, you have no hope?
I did ask "Do you have a short answer as to what the people of Judah and the people of Joseph are to be saved from?"
and I guess your answer is no, you don't have a short answer. If I were to be asked that question my short and SIMPLE answer would be 'eternal death'.

Safiyyah said...

There were Christians living in the land that is now called Israel prior to 1948. They were legal residents of that land, along with many others, Muslims, atheists, etc.

What of these people since Israel became a country? Do these people no longer have rights?

It reminds me of how the Taliban blew up the Buddhist statues in Afghanistan when they came into "possession" of that land.

As long as Israel claims itself to be a democracy, other faith groups have rights.

Papa Frank said...

I'm with you on this thought safiyyah.

Papa Frank said...

I am curious about something if anyone here could help me. What is the Jewish idea of possessing the land in relation to the coming of Messiah? What I mean here is do you believe that Messiah will come and help to cause the land of Israel to be settled in its entirety with the boundaries established in the Torah? --or-- Do you believe that Jews must inhabit the original boundaries established in the Torah as a prerequisite to Messiah's coming?

Ralph said...

Papa Frank asked...
"Do you believe that Jews must inhabit the original boundaries established in the Torah as a prerequisite to Messiah's coming?"

Do you mean the original boundaries of the Jews ie. Judah, or the original boundaries of Israel, the promised land af Canaan?
ref:-http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/tribemap.html

Ralph said...

The last part of my reference didn't show. It is /tribemap.html

Papa Frank said...

I am speaking of Israel.

Ralph said...

Papa Frank said...
"I am speaking of Israel."

so I guess you mean the whole of the promised land as defined in Torah. A close examination of the map I referenced would seem to indicate that the Jews presently occupy most if not all of their 'original allotment', and a bit more besides.

In any case I think Messiah will come when He is good and ready and a condition, if I can call it that, is that many of the tribe of Judah, the Jews, will have returned to the 'promised land' before He appears. I don't find any requisite that the other tribes will return before the Messiah. However, I do believe that they will be brought back following His return.

Ralph said...

Devash said...
"... it's another one of the Big Lies."

How do you really know that, or are you just expressing an opinion, not necessarily your own?

also:-
"Either they are tradition Eisav, just wanting to grab back the birthright that he legally sold to Ya'akov or they are Erev Rav from among some of the lost tribes that assimilated into xianity centuries ago."
So, what evidence or reference to notable research do you have to support those suppositions?

also:
"Erev Rav said to the Jews"
I understand it was Aaron who said to the whole of Israel, including the Jews, "These are thy gods, O Israel,.."
ref:-"Exo 32:1 And when the people (the congregation of Israel) saw that Moses delayed to come down from the mountain, the people combined against Aaron, and said to him, Arise and make us gods who shall go before us; for this Moses, the man who brought us forth out of the land of Egypt — we do not know what is become of him.
Exo 32:2 And Aaron says to them, Take off the golden ear-rings which are in the ears of your wives and daughters, and bring them to me.
Exo 32:3 And all the people took off the golden ear-rings that were in their ears, and brought them to Aaron.
Exo 32:4 And he received them at their hands, and formed them with a graving tool; and he made them a molten calf, and said, These are thy gods, O Israel (including Judah), which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt."
(source: Septuagint-Brenton)

Bar Kochba said...

Safiyyah: The proselyztization is not being down by Israeli Christians. These Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant groups have lived in the land for centuries and generally are not engaging in proselytization. The missionizing is being done by US Evangelicals and Baptists with the pretext of supporting Israel. They are not citizens and are only in Israel to convert us. They have no right to do so.

Papa Frank said...

BK -- what's your opinion of my question here about Messiah and the Land of Israel?

Ralph said...

BK said....
"For two thousand years, the universal concensus of Jews has been that belief in Jesus is not compatible with the Torah."

Can you tell me, briefly, why that consensus is held? Or have the reasons been clouded over by the passage of time, as the saying goes?

And should your post read "the universal concensus of Judaism has been..etc?"- for it is evident that many Jews, ie. descendants of Judah, believe otherwise; including the early disciples of Yeshua.

גילוי said...

Ralph, the question is kind of based on preconceptions.

I would say that Joseph is to be saved from Esau, and Judah from Yishmael. This has to do with Joseph, responsible for the physical, fights the corrupt physical, the West. And Judah, responsible for the spiritual, fights the corrupt spiritual, Islam.

KISS does not apply to these ideas. The deeper one learns these matters, the clearer it becomes, and then you realize that catch-phrases do not transmit the idea effectively.

Ralph said...

גילוי, you said...
".. This has to do with Joseph, responsible for the physical, fights the corrupt physical, the West."

From my perspective this then means that Joseph fights against himself, as his descendents, Ephraim and Manasseh, constitute a considerable proportion of what I think you refer to as 'the West'. That is, if you refer to the USA and Britain as 'the West'.

also:-
"I would say that Joseph is to be saved from Esau and Judah from Yishmael."
I don't see Joseph (the USA and Britain) presently under threat from Esau (Turkey) but you guys sure need a lot more help against our common enemy, Yishmael.

also:-
"catch-phrases do not transmit the idea effectively."
Do you consider the term 'eternal death' to be a catch-phrase?

גילוי said...

Ralph,

The danger will become more apparent over hte coming few years with the change in Israeli leadership.

Regarding catch-phrases: You wanted a short answer to a complicated question. There is no one-word answer or one-sentence answer.

The ideas you have regarding Ephraim and Menashe are mistaken.

גילוי said...

Ralph,

Regarding eternal death:

It is a very basic Jewish teaching that all of Israel has a place in the World to Come. Therefore there is no reason for us to fear the afterlife.

Ralph said...

גילוי said...
"The ideas you have regarding Ephraim and Menashe are mistaken."

With respect, how do you know that? Do you have evidence eg. notable research, suggesting otherwise?

גילוי said...

Ralph,

I have looked in to the matter, the evidence presented by those that have this claim, it doesn't hold water. The positive claim has not been proven, the burden of proof is not upon me.

To put it simply:

The Christian nations (the USA, England, Australia, or any other) have no part in the Nation of Israel.

Yehudi01 said...

I have a more liberal opinion on this topic than other Orthodox Jews. I do agree on the point that I abhor the idea of evangelical christians evangelizing Jews anywhere...especially in Israel. What do they have to offer us? For only a moment, let's assume that J-sus is messiah...they have nothing else to offer a Jew. They've desecrated Shabbat, they have no clue what Torah is, and they have all but abolished our Torah-manadated holidays. What have they to offer a Jew? Absolutely nothing. The idea of a Jew abandoning the traditions of our fathers for a foreign religion is ridiculous. However...
Imagine sitting in a cafe on Ben Yehuda and striking up a conversation with another Jew and he suggests that J-sus, the Rebbe, Bar Kochba, or someone else is Mashiach...I would be interested in hearing his logic. If he could prove his claim with the Torah/ Talmud I would be intrigued. If it doesn't line-up then I simply dismiss it and show him where he's missed the boat. I think there's a big difference between that and someone standing on a street corner handing out pamphlets.

Ralph said...

גילוי said...
"The positive claim has not been proven, the burden of proof is not upon me."

I agree, it is not. I was simply responding to your statement that I was mistaken. Obviously I do believe that what you refer to as "The Christian nations (the USA, England, Australia, or any other)" do have a part in the Nation of Israel.
However I don't think it is my place to offer proof on this Blog.
As an aside I also think the term 'Christian' is, in most cases, very loosely applied. It is one thing to acknowledge Jesus of Nazareth, it is another to believe and do what he said. eg.Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.(precepts)

Yehudi01 said...

Ralph, do you believe it is your divine mandate to evangelize and convert the Jewish people? Didn't J-sus tell you to go to the four corners of the earth, "to the Jew first, then the gentile?" I am just curious if that is your understanding of the "Great Commission."

Ralph said...

Yehudi01 said...
"...I would be interested in hearing his logic."

Perhaps you would be interested in reading the logic of an 'investigative journalist' by name of Lee Strobel. This author wrote "The Case for Christ" which was copyrighted in 1998. In the introduction to the book he writes:-
"JUDGING FOR YOURSELF
Maybe you too have been basing your spiritual outlook on the evidence you've observed around you or gleaned long ago from books, college professors, family members, or friends.. But is your conclusion really the best possible explanation for the evidence? If you were to dig deeper--to confront your preconceptions and systematically seek out proof--what would you find?
That's what this book is about."

The book is still available from Amazon and their website indicates "310 Used & new from $1.27"
The paperback edition is 271 pages of A5 size and can be read over a weekend, as I found.

Quoted from the book:-
"ABOUT THE AUTHOR
Lee Stroble, who holds a Master of Studies in Law degree from Yale Law School, as well as a journalism degree from the University of Missouri, is the former legal affairs editor of the Chicago Tribune. His awards include Illinois's highest honours for both investigative reporting and public service journalism from United Press International.

Ralph said...

Yehudi01 said...
" Ralph, do you believe it is your divine mandate to evangelize and convert the Jewish people?"

My first response was to Laugh Out Loud! Then you said:-"Didn't J-sus tell you to go to the four corners of the earth, "to the Jew first, then the gentile?"
My answer:-'Not me personally'. If such were the case then I might find myself standing on a street corner, handing out leaflets. LOL.

Then:-"I am just curious if that is your understanding of the "Great Commission."
My answer:-Yes it is, as confirmed in Matt.28:19-20 (however, I don't believe in ghosts) I also believe the commision was, and still is, given to those with greater abilities than mine.

The title of BK's Blog is 'The Truth About Moshiach'. I would hope that the comments I present would help confirm that title.

Yehudi01 said...

Ralph, I appreciate the tip, but let me ask you a question: Is he Jewish? Is he a Shomer Shabbat? Does he truly understand the Jewish (not Christian) definition of the Mashiach? Please see my comment above...there is nothing a christian has to offer an observant Jew. We are not on the same level...an example:
You tell me that J-sus is the messiah. So I ask you if J-sus fits the definition of the Mashiach as described by Rambam...and you and every other evangelical would look at me with a dull, blank stare. Very few christians have any idea who he is, yet his teachings are foundational to Judaism.

Based on this, I am extremely reticent to read any book or talk to any non-Jew about Jewish topics because they really have nothing to offer.

Yehudi01 said...

Ralph, you listed Matt.28:19-20, and then said you don't believe in ghosts...I don't understand why you said that. Is that because those verses mention the Holy Spirit? You don't believe in the Holy Spirit, or Ruach HaKodesh?

Ralph said...

Yehudi01, you asked...
"Is he Jewish?"

To the best of my present understanding Lee Strobel is not Jewish, far from it. As a result of his investigations I understand him to be a converted 'Christian'. Once again I use the word advisedly.To quote from his book:-
"For much of my life I was a skeptic. In fact, I considered myself an atheist..."

There is more I would like to say except I have run out of time this morning (here) However, just one more thing, by Rambam I presume you mean Maimonides and I am not greatly familiar with his work.

More later.

Yehudi01 said...

My point exactly. Shalom.

Yehudi01 said...

Ralph, I enjoy a good debate, but we need to meet on level ground. Since the Torah predates any christian writings it is then determined to be foundational in your faith. Therefore, let us debate Torah/Talmud and other Hebraic writings. If you can make your "Case For Christ" from these foundational sources, then I'll sit in the front pew with you. :)

Ralph said...

Shalom, Yehudi01
Firstly I want to admit to a poor use of words when I said "(however, I don't believe in ghosts)"
At the time, I had an AKJ reference opened on my PC and it does use the word 'Ghost' where other translations use the correct word 'Spirit'. Be assured, I truly believe in the 'Ruach HaKodesh" as found in Torah. Also please understand I do not advocate 'the Trinity'.

You also said "..I enjoy a good debate,"and I will admit to the same however, I cannot see that we would meet on common ground.
I have the philosophy, as I think others would also, that what we profess of ourselves today is a 'sum' of all we have learnt from the time we were able to comprehend anything from our youth. We have learnt from others who have taught us either directly or from the printed word, from our experiences through life, from personal opinions we have formed and from whatever other source that puts information into our minds, including the Ruach HaKodesh.
To conclude this I would also say 'we believe what we WANT to believe' whether it be the truth or a lie.

I would suppose that you were born into the Jewish faith ie. Judaism, and that has been the principal teacher from your youth.
I was not born into a 'Christian' upbringing but became aware of 'that way' somewhat later in life and became an 'avid' believer. In saying that I would also say that the Jesus/Yeshua I follow did, and still does, advocate the 'true' weekly Sabbath, the 14/15 Nisan (Abib) Passover together with the other annual Holy days all the way through to Succot and Shemini Atzaret. I believe I understand the meaning of the Hebrew term 'Ha Olam'.
However, I personally see Purim as a Jewish festival and not a requirement for 'Christian' living. That is not to say I wouldn't participate if invited by any Jewish friends, after all, it is a celebration of deliverance from evil.

On second thoughts, perhaps we do have some 'common ground' although much of what I see or understand from Torah is/will be quite different from your own view.

Finally, you also said "Since the Torah predates any christian writings it is then determined to be foundational in your faith."
Yes, I am convinced that the New Testament is built on the foundation of the Old.

Yehudi01 said...

Ralph, though we have moved on to the new post, I want to make a point here that I think you can affirm:
A christian cannot possibly meet a Jew on level ground. You could not possibly enter into an intelligent discussion about Hashem. Here's why:
We know that the written Torah was the very spoken words of G-d to Moshe, the she-bi-khtav. Those words have been meticulously preserved, (see the new post on this blog), so this is truly the foundation of all we have. Also given to Moshe at the same time was the Oral Law, the she-be'al peh, which explained and expounded on the written Torah.

Since these came from the very mouth of G-d, they are obviously the ultimate and final authority. If something in the Writings don't line up and contradict the Torah, it must be thrown out. If something in the Prophets contradict the Torah, it must be thrown out. If someone teaches something contrary to what is taught in the Torah, it must be dismissed. Therefore, if you believe the NT to be authoratative and divinely inspired, it must line up with Torah on every point, or it must be thrown out.

Can you tell me that the NT NEVER contradicts the Torah? If it does, you must dismiss it and throw it out.

Keli Ata said...

"I must admit that I do not at all understand your fear of Jews hearing of Jesus."

I don't 'fear' hearing of Jesus, in fact I was raised Christian (Catholic) and even as a child could see through Christianity and ultimately reject it as an adult.

It's not about fear it's about truth.

Eved of HaShem said...

Isaiah 56:8

"For the Sovereign Lord, who brings back the outcasts of Israel, says: I will bring others, too, besides my people Israel."

Could these "others" be the Gentile believers or Christians?