Tuesday, June 17, 2008

Levelling the Playing Field - Part # 1: The Uniqueness of Israel's Revelation


Missionaries resort to a number of deceptive arguments to which many ignorant Jews have no retort. Therefore, it is necessary that every Jew familiarize himself with certain key points if he wishes to combat misssionaries. It is essential that he learn how to frame the debate and level the theological playing field, so to speak, in order to provide solid ground for the Judaism's answer. The most important thing to lay down is the superiority of Judaism's revelations and claims verses the flimsy ones of Christianity.

Judaism began with an Earth-shaking event, literally. It is an event which there is no parallel in any of the thousands of religion, beliefs or mythologies that exist. On the morning of the 6 of Sivan in the 2448th year since Creation, G-d Himself descended on Mount Sinai and revealed Himself before over 3 million Jewish men, women and children, and all of the souls of future Jewish generations, to present to them the awesome gift of the Torah. 'You might inquire about times long past, from the day that God created man on earth, and from one end of heaven to the other: Has there ever been anything like this great thing or has anything like it been heard? Has a people ever heard the voice of God speaking from the midst of the fires as you have heard and survived?' (Deut. 4:32-33) No other belief system begins with a national revelation, before millions of people. The simple reason is that it is impossible to make this sort of event up. If somebody had come along at a later date and tried to introduce the Jews to this story, they would have never accepted this made-up part of their collective history. Either they would have experienced it themselves or their ancestors would have past stories about the event down to them. Its impossible to convince somebody that G-d spoke to their parents, grandparents and the entire nation, and yet they've never heard about this before. From this most awesome of event, comes the basis of Judaism.

Maimonides writes:

Israel did not believe in Moses, our teacher, on account of the miracles he performed. For when one's faith is based on miracles, doubt remains in the mind that these miracles may have been done through the occult and witchcraft...

What then were the grounds of believing him? The revelation on Sinai which we saw with our own eyes, and heard with our own ears, not having to depend on the testimony of others...
(Mishna Torah - Foundations of Torah 8:1)

This momentous national revelation helps explain why Jews remained faithful to their faith during the thousands of years of harsh exile. G-d commanded them that His Torah was eternal and that nothing could be added or subtracted to it. The Torah that we have today is the exact Torah, to the letter, that we received at Sinai. the Midrash (Devarim Rabba 9:4) tells us: "Before his death, Moses wrote 13 Torah Scrolls. Twelve of these were distributed to each of the 12 Tribes. The 13th was placed in the Ark of the Covenant (with the Tablets). If anyone would come and attempt to rewrite or falsify the Torah, the one in the Ark would "testify" against him. (Likewise, if he had access to the scroll in the Ark and tried to falsify it, the distributed copies would "testify" against him.)" All newly written Torah scrolls were proof-checked against the Torah contained in the Holy Ark. To eliminate any chance of human error, Jewish law enumerates 20 ways that can invalidate a Torah. If even a single letter is mispelled, the entire Torah is disqualified! There are entire books written on how to pronounce every word of the Torah. During the exile, Jews were dispersed in far-flung places such as Poland, Morroco, Australia and Iran. After 1948, when thousands of Torah scrolls were brought to Israel, they were all cross-checked. Out of the 304,805 letters of the Torah, only 9 letters were in variation in the Yemenite Torahs since the Yemenite community was isolated from mainstream Judaism. These 9 letters have absolutely no effect on the meaning of the text.

There is a famous story in the Talmud (Eruvin 13a):

When Rabbi Meir came to Rabbi Yishmael to learn Torah, he was asked:

"What is your profession, my son?"

"I am a scribe," was the reply.

He said to me: "My son, be careful with your work, for it is the work of Heaven. Should you perhaps omit one letter or add one letter -- it could result that you destroy the entire world

Rebbe Meir remarked: "Needless to say, I do not err by omitting or adding (letters)... but I am even concerned for a fly -- lest it come and alight upon the right-hand corner of a dalet and erase it, thereby rendering it a reish.


In contrast, Christianity's claims are based on the flimsy writings of individuals. If the Christian Bible is to be taken at face value, Jesus performed miracles before his disciples or a few villagers. (Even his public miracles in no way compare to the millions at Sinai.) Paul had his ephiphany alone on a road to Damascus. Christianity has no national revelation! However, even acceping the stories of the Christian Bible is generous. There is an acknowledged consensus among Christian academics that the Gospels were not written by eye witnesses but rather were pseudonymously attributed to Jesus's disciples, and the Paul's epistles make no mention of Jesus's life and ministry. Following the death of Jesus (whose very historicity is problematic), hundreds of Gospels detailing his life were written, of which the Church chose but a few. In his book, Answering Christianity's Most Puzzling Questions, Christian apologist Richard Sisson states: "In fact, after the death of Jesus a whole flood of books that claimed to be inspired appeared.... Disputes over which ones were true were so intense that the debate continued for centuries. Finally in the fourth century a group of church leaders called a council and took a vote. The 66 books that comprised our cherished Bible were declared to be Scripture by a vote of 568 to 563." The Catholic Encyclopedia records that it was the decision of Church father St. Irenaeus to name the Gospels as they are known today. Many events recorded in the Gospels contradict historical facts or Jewish law, proving its falsehood. In fact, Jesus divinity was only established by a vote in the 4th century CE at the Council of Nicea!

In contrast to the Torah's perfect preservation, there exist about 30 000 variations in the text of the Christian Bible.

(From Simple To Remember)
First, the Christian Bible is about 1,700 years younger than the Torah. Second, the Christians haven't gone through nearly as much exile and dislocation as the Jews. Third, Christianity has always had a central authority (the Vatican) to ensure the accuracy of their text.

What are the results? The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible, a book written to prove the validity of the New Testament, says: " A study of 150 Greek [manuscripts] of the Gospel of Luke has revealed more than 30,000 different readings... It is safe to say that there is not one sentence in the New Testament in which the [manuscript] is wholly uniform."

Other scholars report there are some 200,000 variants in the existing manuscripts of the New Testament, representing about 400 variant readings which cause doubt about textual meaning; 50 of these are of great significance.

The Torah has nine spelling variants -- with absolutely no effect on the meaning of the words. The Christian Bible has over 200,000 variants and in 400 instances the variants change the meaning of the text.

When comparing the national revelation that is the basis of Judaism and the unbroken transmission of the Torah until today with the historical inaccuracies of Christianity's founding, couples with its ahistorical and forged holy books and immense variations, with the original text unrecognizable, why would anybody trust in Christianity's claims? They are shaky and weak, while the revelation at Sinai is emet v'yatsiv, true and certain. Any Jew who is flirting with Christianity must realize that he is trading in the certainty of G-d's Torah for a man-made sham.

"[Moses told the Israelites]: 'Only beware for yourself and greatly beware for your soul, lest you forget the things that your eyes have beheld. Do not remove this memory from your heart all the days of your life. Teach your children and your children's children about the day that you stood before the Lord your God at Horev [Mount Sinai]...

God spoke to you from the midst of the fire, you were hearing the sound of words, but you were not seeing a form, only a sound. He told you of His covenant, instructing you to keep the Ten Commandments, and He inscribed them on two stone tablets.'"
(Deut.4:9-13) Never forget that awesome day when we all saw G-d!

78 comments:

Ralph said...

BK said...
"G-d Himself descended on Mount Sinai and revealed Himself before over 3 million Jewish men, women and children, and all of the souls of future Jewish generations, to present to them the awesome gift of the Torah."

Could you tell me how you arrive at the figure of 3 million Jews?
At the same time you might confirm the derivation of the word 'Jew'.

KewlDD said...

The Torah says that 600,000 Jewish men (of census age; 20-60) were present at the revelation. Assuming that there were just as many if not more women, added together with the children and elderly, it is safe to say that there were somewhere between two and three million Israelites at the foot of Sinai.

גילוי said...

Ralph,

Using the word Jew is not a distortion of terms in the way that you imply. Since the exile in the time of the Assyrian kingdom, all tribes (that remained and identified with the nation of Israel) assimilated in the nation of Judah, from which the word Jew derives. It will not be for another few decades, most likely, before we start referring to everyone by their tribal roots again.

Therefore, today, Jew is a word that implies Israelite, and its usage is proper even if it wasn't in use at the time of the Revelation at Sinai. And when the other (lost) tribes of Israel choose to re-recognize this revelation, they will re-join us.

Ralph said...

גילוי said...
"Using the word Jew is not a distortion of terms in the way that you imply."

Obviously I disagree with you. A Jew is a Jew, a descendant of Judah and I suggest it is confusing to others to consistently refer to the Jews as Israel. Judah constitutes a minority of the 'Nation' of Israel as it is only one of twelve tribes that were given an allotment of land in Canaan. Even Josephus in the first century of the Common Era spoke of the immense numbers of the other tribes, as well as their location at that time viz:- 'Antiquities of the Jews. Book 11 ch 5.2 "....but then the entire body of the people of Israel (not Judah) remained in that country; wherefore there are but two tribes in Asia (no doubt Judah and Benjamin) and Europe subject to the Iomans, while the ten tribes are beyond Euphrates till now,(the 1st century of the Common Era) and are an immense multitude, and not to be estimated by numbers."

So much for "all tribes (that remained and identified with the nation of Israel) assimilated in the nation of Judah," --- "Since the exile in the time of the Assyrian kingdom," which was several hundred years BCE.
also:-
"Therefore, today, Jew is a word that implies Israelite,.."
Yes, a Jew is an Israelite, however not all Israelites are Jews and to infer that they are does Judaism, and the other tribes, a great disservice.

Ralph said...

KewlDD said...
"The Torah says that 600,000 Jewish men (of census age; 20-60) were present at the revelation."

I don't have a Hebrew Torah copy so I don't know if it is divided into chapter and verse, I would guess not.
But, can you give us a reference of some sort where the Torah specifies 600,000 Jewish men at Mt.Sinai as distinct from 600,000 Israelite men?

Banner Kidd said...

They were a "mixed multitude" at Sinai, not Isralites only! Torah is for the nations, including Israel. Yeshua is misrepresented by mainstream Christianity as well as orthodox Judaism. HE was the only perfect Torah keeper and because of this HE is the Messiah and Savior the Son of Yahweh.

גילוי said...

Ralph,

Four tribes were always in the kingdom of Judah:

Judah
Benjamin
Simon
Levi

In the times of the 2nd Temple, the land was not divided tribally.

Regarding Josephus, I do not believe that he spoke of firsthand experience, but of what he had heard.

You are getting stuck on a single issue which is moot. The Lost Tribes are still "lost" as long as they still have not returned to Torah and Mitzvot according to the Tradition of Israel, which means obeying the ruling of the Sanhedrin, which have been brought down in the Mishnah and Talmudim.

Bar Kochba said...

It is pointless to argue on the meaning of the word Jew. I use it in the sense of the Children of Israel. Your arguing reminds me of the claim that the Arabs cannot be anti-semitic because they are themselves semitic. You know what I mean and it does nothing to argue over this triviality.

Banner Kidd: You forget that the Mixed Multitude led Israel to sin numerous times and set up for them the hideous Golden Calf. In fact, the J4Js use the same words as the Mixed Multitude in convincing Israel to worship idols: "Behold your G-d!" Yoshke was a heretic and a sinner. Jews have 613 commandments and non-Jews have 7.

Ralph said...

Bar Kochba said...
"... it does nothing to argue over this triviality."

Obviously I don't consider the matter to be a triviality and I am content not to 'argue' over the matter, simply to make comment on it as the occasion warrants.

Ralph said...

Banner Kidd said...
"They were a "mixed multitude" at Sinai, not Isralites only! Torah is for the nations, including Israel. Yeshua is misrepresented by mainstream Christianity as well as orthodox Judaism. HE was the only perfect Torah keeper....."

I can only agree with that.
also:-
"and because of this HE is the Messiah and Savior the Son of Yahweh."

Perhaps you mean He 'qualifies' as "Messiah and Savior the Son of Yahweh."

Ralph said...

גילוי said...
"In the times of the 2nd Temple, the land was not divided tribally."

I don't suppose it could be, the ten northern tribes had been taken away from the land.
also:-
" Regarding Josephus, I do not believe that he spoke of firsthand experience, but of what he had heard."

If that's what you want to believe, then that's what you will believe. Do you think someone had lied to him?
also:-
"The Lost Tribes are still "lost" as long as they still have not returned to Torah and Mitzvot according to the Tradition of Israel,.."

Apart from yourself, who says so? Perhaps we have a different understanding of the expression "Lost Tribes". My understanding is that they are not recognized by the world today, especially Judaism, nor, for that matter, themselves.
also:-
"...obeying the ruling of the Sanhedrin, which have been brought down in the Mishnah and Talmudim."

I would not place myself under the ruling of men who believe they have absolute authority to interpret scripture, which is also one of the reasons I reject Roman Catholicism. As the apostle Peter said in:-"Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men."
(source-AKJ)

Which reminds me, do you know the capital charge which resulted in the crucifixion of Yeshua?

Ralph said...

Bar Kochba said...
" You forget that the Mixed Multitude led Israel to sin numerous times and set up for them the hideous Golden Calf."

Apart from yourself BK, who says so? Can you guide us to specific verses in the Torah which confirm your belief, that "the Mixed Multitude led Israel to sin"?

Yehudi01 said...

Banner Kidd and Ralph, please don't spell out YHVH. It is out of ignorance that you do this, so please refrain from doing so. Please refer to G-d as Hashem or G-d.

Bar Kochba said...

Exodus 32:4 records the incident of the Golden Calf. "They said: 'This is thy god, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.'" They refers to the Mixed Multitude who resorted to their native idolatry. They were speaking to Israel since they were, so to speak, outside the nation. Numbers 11 also gives another incident in which the mixed multitude caused Israel to sin. "And the people were as murmurers, speaking evil in the ears of the LORD; and when the LORD heard it, His anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and devoured in the uttermost part of the camp. And the people cried unto Moses; and Moses prayed unto the LORD, and the fire abated. And the name of that place was called Taberah, because the fire of the LORD burnt among them. And the mixed multitude that was among them fell a lusting; and the children of Israel also wept on their part, and said: 'Would that we were given flesh to eat!" The fire devoured 'the utermost part of the camp' since the mixed multitude did not march in the tribal formation but rather dwellt at the edge of Israel' camp.

And on another note, the capital charge leveled against Yeishu is an example of the innacuracies of the Christian Bible. Virtually every aspect of the trial violated Jewish law. Jewish was supposedly punished for uttering blasphemy by saying 'I and the Father are One". However, udner Jewish law, that does not qualify as blasphemy, which only means cursing G-d. It may have been idolatry but the charge is very significant. Also, crucifixion was never a Jewish punishment. The 4 punishments of the courts were burning, stoning, decapitation and strangulation.

Ralph said...

Yehudi01 said...
"...Ralph, please don't spell out YHVH."

Sorry Yehudi01, I am aware of the sensitivities of Judaism in this area. My spelling out of 'the name' came from a direct copy and paste from my e-Sword software and the comments of 'banner kidd'. I'll try to remember to edit any further comments, after all, I am a guest on this Blog and not the owner.

Yehudi01 said...

It's appreciated.

Yehudi01 said...

Ralph, did you have a response to my last comment in the previous post from yesterday?

Ralph said...

Yehudi01
you asked:
"Ralph, did you have a response to my last comment in the previous post from yesterday?"

Your comment gave me much to consider. I am presently putting together a reply and will soon add it to this present post, if that's OK.

גילוי said...

Ralph,

Do you have any records of Josephus himself travelling to the far east to search out the twelve tribes? Why would you assume this, obviously knowing what his personal background was before turning official Roman historian?

As far as an absolute authority, that is exactly what it is. See Deuteronomy chapter 17. This is the passages which give authority to the High Court. If you choose to interpret and instruct others to do against their interpretation, the sentence is death. Furthermore, it says "and you shall burn away the evil from your midst". That is to say if you interpret and instruct to do differently than them, you are doing evil.

Regarding the trial in your bible, it has no relevance to me, I do not study it, nor do I plan to.

Banner Kidd said...

I would like to respond to a few things stated on this blog. Some in response to me.

First of all. The "mixed multitude" was mixed because it was made up of Israelites along with other nations. Surprise! Israel is also a nation (gentile - the word means nations). Israel is not the chosen frozen. Israel's history with the Almighty Creator is one of lawlessness to the point of killing the prophets who HE sent to call them to repentance to Torah. Israel was/is no less wicked than any person on the planet who chooses to live in opposition to Torah, rejecting the work of the Spirit (grace) and the faith that is available to those who believe and do Torah.

As far as obeying the Sanhedrin: I think not. I obey HIM according to HIS Word. The Sanhedrin is corrupt and has been as any man centered institution is, Jew or otherwise. The additions and subtractions by Mishna are an abomination to HIM. I am not interested in following man's additions and subtractions, be they from traditional christianity (which I came out of) or orthodox judaism, which I don't want to enter into. I have been grafted into Messiah Yeshua. Deuteronomy 17 give authority to those who sit in the seat of Moses only when they adhere strictly to Torah without man centered interpretation of additions and subtractions. Otherwise they have no given authority from HIM, but have taken authority of their own cognizance. They have set themselves up as the arbiter of good and evil, instead of Torah.

And I do mean that HE is the Messiah, the Son of (insert what you want to call HIM here.) I have no problem calling HIM by HIS Name. I know HIM by HIS name. HE told Moses that prior to Sinai HIS people did not know HIM by HIS Name, but now those who have a personal relationship with HIM through Yeshua HaMoshiach do know HIS Name and may call HIM by Name.

Jews would do well to forsake Judaism to become grafted into Messiah, apart from man's commandments and doctrines by those who believe the Jew is saved by being a Jew. And likewise the professing christian who rejects Torah and clings to commandments and doctrines of the so called "church fathers" would do well to forsake that establishment to be grafted into Messiah Yeshua. Out of the two lawless - Jew and Gentile, HE wants to make on new man - bringing lawless men into right relationship with HIM to a keeping of the Torah!

Blessed be the Name (that you don't believe you can say)!

גילוי said...

Banner Kid,

What you say does not agree with the Torah.

Regarding the specialness of Israel, it is obvious from the written text that Israel is a cherished nation unto G-d, and at the End of Days, G-d will be happy with us specifically for observing the commandments, see Deuteronomy 30 in depth on this. Obviously G-d is not going to replace us with some other nation that does not observe his commandments, including the one regarding the Sanhedrin. Which brings me to the next point.

I don't get how you can claim to follow G-d's word and then say that you are not required to follow the Sanhedrin. That is explicit from the text. So maybe you should revise your statement to "I obey His word, except for this commandment".

If you followed that commandment, which is very fundamental, you would also give up your idolatry.

Bar Kochba said...

Banner Kid, your ignorance is astounding. The mixed multitude were Egyptians or non-Jewish slaves who left Egypt along with Israel. They pretended to be sincere converts but they let Israel to stray repeatedly. It is a belief that the wicked anti-Torah Jews that have plagued us until today are descendants from them.

The Torah is eternal and Israel' choseness is eternal.

Malachi 3:23 Remember the Torah of Moses My servant, which I commanded him at Horeb for all of Israel -- [its] decrees and [its] statutes.

Proverbs 4:2 For I give you good doctrine, forsake ye not My law.

Proverbs 6:23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:

Proverbs 7:2 Keep My commandments, and live; and My law as the apple of thine eye.

Deuteronomy 4:8 And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?

Deuteronomy 11:1 Therefore thou shalt love the Lord thy G-d, and keep His charge, and His statutes, and His judgments, and His commandments, alway.

Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your G-d which I command you. (KJV)

Deuteronomy 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear Me, and keep all My commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever! (KJV)

"The grass withers, the flower fades; but the word of our God will stand forever."
Isaiah 40:8 (NRS)


G-d will never replaced His favourite people.

Daniel 9:4 And I prayed unto the LORD my G-d, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful G-d, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments; (KJV)

Nehemiah 1:5 And said, I beseech thee, O LORD G-d of heaven, the great and terrible G-d, that keepeth covenant and mercy for them that love him and observe his commandments: (KJV)

1 Chronicles 16:13 O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones. [14] He is the LORD our G-d; his judgments are in all the earth. [15] Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations; [16] Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; [17] And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant. (KJV)

"He sent redemption to his people; He has commanded his covenant forever. Holy and awesome is His Name." Psalms 111:19 (NRS)

Jews derive spirituality from observing the laws of the Torah. They are holy and for ever. I would ask that you not refer to Judaism as an abomination on this site again.

Yehudi01 said...

I am not offended that Banner Kidd doesn't accept the authority of the Sanhedrin, because he's not Jewish. Leave it to a Gentile to lecture us on how to do things correctly. Banner Kidd, you don't have to accept the authority of the Sanhedrin. You have 7 laws to follow, one of which is to reject idolatry.

Yehudi01 said...

On the same note, I find it amazingly hypocritical that you will come to this post, Banner Kidd, and lecture us, yet you refuse to post the 2 comments that I left on your blog yesterday. Neither were rude or demeaning in any way...I simply disagreed with you.

Ralph said...

Yehudi01 said...
"I am not offended that Banner Kidd doesn't accept the authority of the Sanhedrin, because he's not Jewish."

He may also be overlooking and has not researched this scripture:-" Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not."
(source-AKJ)

Ralph said...

Yehudi01
In the previous post you said " I want to make a point here that I think you can affirm:
A christian cannot possibly meet a Jew on level ground."

You are probably right and, of course, the opposite can apply. This would be for reasons other than you have given, pricipally the fact that you see Yeshua from a different perspective. I wonder if you think he even existed at all.
also:
"You could not possibly enter into an intelligent discussion about Hashem."
Probably not with an orthodox Jew who has a single mindset.
(No offence meant)

you also said:-
"...Also given to Moshe at the same time was the Oral Law, the she-be'al peh, which explained and expounded on the written Torah."

I don't accept that the so called 'Oral Law' was given to Moses at all. From an account I find in a recently published work, the 'Oral Law' was written down during the 2nd - 5th centuries CE, a considerable time after the 'Christian' church was established and had begun to grow. Because of what I perceive it to be, ie. "a compilation of Pharasaical doctrines and practices discussed in the rabbinical academies"; much like other modern scholarly commentaries which can be found for the 'whole' bible today; I am of the belief that the 'Oral Law' was brought out by the Rabbinical system as a counter measure to a growing faith which was, and still is, making inroads into Judaism.

I am happy to quote from my source for this understanding as follows:-

"One of the most profound changes in Phariseeism since the 1st Century CE is that the Oral Torah has been written down. The first to begin writing it down was Rabbi Judah the Prince, who in about 200 CE wrote down the Mishnah, a compilation of Pharasaical doctrines and practices discussed in the rabbinical academies. During the following centuries the Rabbis debated the meaning of various Mishnaic passages and these debates and explanations were written down as the Talmud. There are actually two Talmuds. The Jerusalem Talmud was written in Tiberias and completed around the year 350; it was named “Jerusalem” Talmud even though it was written in Tiberias, to give it more prestige. The Jerusalem Talmud is usually referred to in English as the “Palestinian Talmud.” The second Talmud was completed around the year 500 CE by Ravina and Rav Ashi in Babelonia and was called the Babylonian Talmud. In the Middle Ages, the Jerusalem Talmud was largely ignored while the Babylonian Talmud gained a position of authority. Today, when
Rabbis speak about “Talmud” without specifying which one, they mean the Babylonian Talmud. The third part of the Oral Law is the Midrash which was written down from the 2nd—9th Centuries CE.(12) While the Mishna and Talmud are arranged by topic, the Midrash is arranged as a running commentary on biblical verses."
(source; The Hebrew Yeshua vs. The Greek Jesus - author Nehemia Gordon. Copyright 2005 ISBN 0-9762637-0-X)

More to come later as I am also involved, in a single person household, with preparation for our 'downunder' Sabbath tomorrow.

Yehudi01 said...

Ralph, remember that J-sus was talking to his talmidim, who were Jews. We will be under the authority of the Sanhedrin when it is re-instituted, may it happen speedily in our days! Until then, the Rabbis are able to determine halachic decisions. As non-Jews, you are not under the authority of the Torah. You simply must observe the 7 Noachide Laws:

1. Not to deny God.

2. Not to blaspheme God.

3. Not to murder.

4. Not to engage in incestuous, adulterous, bestial or homosexual relationships.

5. Not to steal.

6. Not to eat a limb torn from a living animal.

7. To set up courts to ensure obedience to the other six laws.

If you observe these 7 laws, you will have a share in the World To Come.

Ralph said...

Yehudi01
you said
"Ralph, remember that J-sus was talking to his talmidim, who were Jews."
Why do you leave the 'e' out of Jesus. Are you beginning to think that he is who many people claim him to be, the son of G-d?
Talmidim is a Hebrew word whereas the NT was handed down to us in the Greek. Strong's concordance gives "G3101
μαθητής
mathētēs
math-ay-tes'
From G3129; a learner, that is, pupil: - disciple."
and doesn't specify them as Jews nor a given number. They could have been of numerous nationalities, who knows?

'WordStudy' gives this:-"G3101
μαθητής
mathētḗs; gen. mathētoú, masc. noun from manthánō (G3129), to learn, to understand. A learner, pupil.
(I) Mathētḗs means more in the NT than a mere pupil or learner. It is an adherent who accepts the instruction given to him and makes it his rule of conduct, e.g., the disciples of John (Mat_11:2; Mar_2:18; Luk_5:33; Luk_7:18; Joh_3:25); the disciples of the Pharisees (Mar_2:18). In Joh_9:28, the Pharisees told the healed blind man, "Thou art his disciple; but we are Moses' disciples." Jesus had disciples in the sense that they believed and made His teaching the basis of their conduct. (Mat_5:1; Mat_9:19; Mat_14:22; Luk_14:26-27, Luk_14:33; Joh_9:27; Joh_15:8).
(II) Besides these believers, however, there was a smaller select group of twelve apostles whom Jesus chose out of the general group of His followers (Mat_8:21; Luk_6:13, Luk_6:17; Luk_7:11; Joh_6:60, Joh_6:66). They were to teach and exercise power in performing miracles in substantiation of His authority transferred to them."
I understand Luke was a Greek.

also:-
"We will be under the authority of the Sanhedrin when it is re-instituted, may it happen speedily in our days!"
You may care to "be under the authority of the Sanhedrin", I will endeavour to continue to be under the authority of my personal saviour, Yeshua.
In any case I understand it, the Sanhedrin, has already been re-instituted, see:-
"http://www.thesanhedrin.org/en/index.php/The_Re-established_Jewish_Sanhedrin"

you also said:-
"As non-Jews, you are not under the authority of the Torah."
Do you honestly believe that the Torah is the exclusive domain of Judaism? I guess you do, for that is what you have probably been taught.

also:-
"You simply must observe the 7 Noachide Laws:"
I see that as very poor advice, probably direct from the Rabbis. We know that G-d will not eternally co-exist with evil, or sin. We also know what sin is:- "1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." (AKJ)
We know that the law is perfect ie.complete:-"Psa 19:7 (18:7) The law of the Lord is perfect, converting souls: the testimony of the Lord is faithful, instructing babes." (Septuagint-Brenton)

To suggest that we have no need to "remember the Sabbath day to keep it Holy", that dishonoring Father or Mother and lying is OK and that coveting is acceptable behaviour sounds too much like 'mainstream' Christianity. No thank you!

I suspect that the Rabbis want to lead those who do not support them down a path to destruction.
I mean let's face it, and with all due respect, the man who relies on another bunch of men to tell him how to put on his shoes when he gets out of bed in the morning, that poor man is either under some kind of spell, or suffering some form of dementia.
(ref: A person must first put on his right shoe, but not tie it. Then he must put on his left shoe and tie it and go back and tie his right shoe. (Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chayim 2:4)

Rabbi Moshe Isserles, the Ashkenazic Rabbi who annotated the Schulchan Aruch with traditions unique to European Jews adds:
Note: Even with our shoes, which do not have laces, a person must still put on his right shoe first. (Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chayim 2:4)

(source-"The Hebrew Yeshua vs. The Greek Jesus - Nehemia Gordon - Copyright 2005 ISBN 0-9762637-0-X)
Does this still apply if one is left-handed?


Finally:-
"If you observe these 7 laws, you will have a share in the World To Come."
Why would the Almighty grant eternal life to any who are not fully prepared to obey him.
"Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, G-d: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."
(AKJ)

Banner Kidd said...

How about Torah saying there is one law for all? How do you get around that one? Sin is lawlessness and all who practice sin - lawlessness, will not enter into the kingdom.

This whole arrogant attitude behind traditional orthodox judaism is ridiculous. There is one Shepherd and one flock and one Torah - set of instructions given for all in the flock.

If you are under the authority of the Sanhedrin you have fallen into the same condition as the people did at Sinai. They refused to go and hear from the Almighty Creator HIMSELF and told Moshe to go for them. They've placed a man in between them and G-d (I only do this to continue the conversation. I have no problem saying HIS Name) ever since. Traditional Christianity has done so as well. A man brings his additions and subtractions to the table and the Torah is leavened. The Sanhedrin did that and people still follow it. It's like the Sanhedrin are a parralel to the Catholic pope. The pope and the catholic establishment believes it has authority that allow it to add to and subtract and change what Torah said. So does the Sanhedrin.

Judaism, as it has been practiced, is not in keeping with Torah. The priesthood has always been outside of Torah as a whole. The temple you are so wanting to rebuild does not line up with the Pattern given on the mount! That's lawlessness!

Ralph said...

Bar Kochba said...
"They said: 'This is thy god, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.'"
and
"They refers to the Mixed Multitude who resorted to their native idolatry."

How do you really know that? I will readily admit that 7 of the 8 bible translations I have on my e-Sword bible study software show "they said' or "they say".
However the 8th (a new beginning?) Brenton's Septuagint omits the word 'They'. viz:
"Exo 32:4 And he received them at their hands, and formed them with a graving tool; and he made them a molten calf, and said, These are thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt."

Exodus 32 vs 1 thru 4 emphasize Aaron viz:-" Exo 32:1 And when the people (the congregation of Israel) saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people (the congregation of Israel) gathered themselves together unto AARON, and said unto him (AARON), Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.
Exo 32:2 And AARON said unto them, Break off the golden earrings, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them unto me(AARON).
Exo 32:3 And all the people (the congregation of Israel) brake off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them unto AARON.
Exo 32:4 And he (AARON) received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he (AARON) had made it a molten calf: and -- suddenly there is the exclamation "These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt".
(source-AKJ)

With all the emphasis on 'AARON' it is quite possible, and probable, that he was the one who said "These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt", and not "the mixed multitude".


As I finished this comment I looked up again to your text above this box which reads "This is a new threat, a form of spiritual terrorism, dedicated to getting Jews to forsake Judaism. It is our duty to eradicate them."

With respect I shall ask-Wouldn't it be more profitable to 're-educate' them, perhaps along the lines of " Deu 4:5 Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the LORD my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it.
Deu 4:6 Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.
Deu 4:7 For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for?
Deu 4:8 And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?
"

Who knows, they may even consider emulating your faith.
No offence intended, but surely you don't want to mimic the published policy of that certifiably insane President of Persia.

Yehudi01 said...

Ralph and Banner Kidd, you make this too easy for me. It's like clubbing baby seals. (It's a figure of speech...I've never clubbed baby seals.)

Banner Kidd, first, I find it extrememly offensive that you would come to this kosher blog and offend the rabbis. You are a non-Jew trying to throw around words like 'Torah' and 'leavened' to make yourself sound Jewish. It is more than obvious that you do not know what you're talking about and in the process, have slandered the Rabbis. You owe an apology.


You said, "If you are under the authority of the Sanhedrin you have fallen into the same condition as the people did at Sinai. They refused to go and hear from the Almighty Creator HIMSELF and told Moshe to go for them. They've placed a man in between them and G-d." Isn't that what you've done by accepting Christianity? You've placed a man, (J-sus) between you and G-d. Why don't you approach Hashem on your own? There's a hundred scriptures that allow you to do that...I would cite them, but I have limited time this morning.

Ralph, your ideas of 1st century Judaism are fatally flawed. First, I will not contest the existance of J-sus, as it is historical fact. He had followers, as did Hillel and Shammai. (Do you know who they are? Probably not. Sigh.)
In Judaism, the student of a rabbi is called a talmid. They most certainly were Jews. Non-Jews would not have been allowed into that circle. If you walked into a yeshiva today and approached a rabbi and said, "Rabbi, I want to sit under you and learn Torah." The first thing he will do is establish if you're Jewish. If you're not, he will ask you to leave. It was no different then. The talmidim of any rabbi or Torah-teacher was Jewish.

For both of you: You have a problem with only folloowing the 7 Noachide Laws. Your church fathers, in Acts 15 determined that non-Jews do not need to be circumsized, are not obligated to be Torah-observant, and must observe the 7 Noachide Laws. It says in part, " 19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."
Anything beyond that is based on your individual level of observance.

Ralph, if you want to learn the full meaning of what Hashem has to say to you, read it in Hebrew...not english, not greek, not latin. Don't rely on software. Learn Hebrew and speak the language of Hashem. Then you will be better prepared to come and debate.

Yehudi01 said...

Banner Kidd, I just remembered you said, "Judaism, as it has been practiced, is not in keeping with Torah. The priesthood has always been outside of Torah as a whole. The temple you are so wanting to rebuild does not line up with the Pattern given on the mount! That's lawlessness!

Ezekiel gives us a very clear picture of the 3rd Temple. If J-sus is the final sacrifice, why would there be need of a 3rd Temple? Go ask your pastor and stop slandering on this blog.

Banner Kidd said...

Clubbing baby seals????? As you say!

Sir the 3rd temple cited in Ezekiel is not the temple of G-d. It is the temple of the anti-messiah! The plumb line applied to it did not fit the Pattern on the mountain. Haggai speaks clearly about the latter temple and its greatness. Such temple is the body of Messiah. HE has always sought to dwell in the hearts of men who are born again, from above, into HIS family. HIS temple, sanctuary is HIS household - the household of faith.

And you misread the Acts 15 portion just as does the professing church. You are wrong and they are wrong. The point was that this was a beginning and that as they studied Torah they would learn and begin to observe Torah.

Your Rabbis kick out a person who wants to learn Torah! Would the Almighty do that?

You sir are walking in opposition to the Creator. In your arrogance you believe that the Jew is the only one who Torah was given to - that you and the Jews are special above all people. The fact is you are only special as you hear HIS Voice and obey HIM, not the voice of puny men who take authority for themselves.

You accuse me of slander? So be it! It is not slander when it is the Truth. The ruling authorities killed the prophets and now subvert the message of the prophets, continuing to kill them. You destroy the Torah with your sectarian, man centered doctrine, rather than fulfill it by keeping it apart from man's tradition.

And now, in closing, in this my final word on this blog.

If you don't repent and accept Yeshua as Messiah, keep Torah by faith as it is written you will be lost forever, no matter that you are born a Jew. It will do you no good. Yeshua is Lord! Yahweh is HIS Father, and the Ruach is our Rabbi. Abraham is my father because I am a son by faith in Messiah. HE came once and the Jewish establishment rejected HIM. Don't be a fool and reject HIM now as HE is speaking the same thing HE spoke at Sinai to those who have ears to hear.

I am wiping the dust off my feet. Blessed be the Name of Yahweh! I have no problem saying HIS Name.

Ralph said...

Yehudi01 said...
"First, I will not contest the existance of J-sus, as it is historical fact. He had followers,.."

That you will not contest his existance is 'good news.'
also:-
" as did Hillel and Shammai. (Do you know who they are? Probably not. Sigh.)"

I believe I am familiar with Hillel 2 and his unauthorized changes to the Holy calendar. 'Shammai', I have heard the name and that's it. What relevance does he have to Christianity?

also;-
"Non-Jews would not have been allowed into that circle."
I think you underestimate the power, love and concern of Yeshua, even of G-d himself. I know you would be familiar with this scripture:-"Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world (the people of the world), that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

you also said:-
"If you walked into a yeshiva today and approached a rabbi and said, "Rabbi, I want to sit under you and learn Torah." The first thing he will do is establish if you're Jewish. If you're not, he will ask you to leave. It was no different then. The talmidim of any rabbi or Torah-teacher was Jewish."

You are simply talking about other men. Once again I believe you underestimate the power and love of G-d.
also:-
" in Acts 15 determined that non-Jews do not need to be circumsized,"
Agreed. Such was not the 'Law of Moses'.

"are not obligated to be Torah-observant,"
Where is that recorded?

also:-
"21For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."
So, apart from Torah, what was the preaching of Moses?

Finally:-
"Ralph, if you want to learn the full meaning of what Hashem has to say to you, read it in Hebrew...not english, not greek, not latin. Don't rely on software."

Are you suggesting that G-d doesn't speak nor understand English? Forget the Latin! I ask again, do you truly believe that the Torah is the exclusive domain of Judasism?

By the way, if I may ask, what is the formula for underlining and changing font colour in the comments box?

Ralph said...

Yehudi01 said...
"If J-sus is the final sacrifice,"

Who said he was the final sacrifice?
My understanding is that there is no more sacrifice for sin viz:-"Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,"

This doesn't negate sacrificial thank offerings nor other similar offerings at the next temple, just that there remains no more sacrifice for sin. We are a forgiven people.

Yehudi01 said...

Banner Kidd, how can it be the Temple of "anti-messiah when it gives clear instructions on the dimensions? Ezekiel 40 is the blueprint of the Third and final Temple. What a stretch. Give me a break.

Ralph, you asked "I believe I am familiar with Hillel 2 and his unauthorized changes to the Holy calendar. 'Shammai', I have heard the name and that's it. What relevance does he have to Christianity?"

Do a Google search of these 2 and read about them. Many of the things J-sus reportedly taught came from Hillel.

You asked, "are not obligated to be Torah-observant,"
Where is that recorded?

In your bible. Acts 15.

You asked, "also:-
"21For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."
So, apart from Torah, what was the preaching of Moses?"


The weekly parasha is read in synagogue, which is the corresponding section from the prophets.

You asked, "Are you suggesting that G-d doesn't speak nor understand English? Forget the Latin! I ask again, do you truly believe that the Torah is the exclusive domain of Judasism?"

I am saying that if you want to understand EXACTLY what someone is saying, what the deeper meaning is, if you want to understand the possible nuances involved, read it in the original language. Much is lost in translation. Hebrew is a very deep and rich language. Since the Torah is the very spoken words of Hashem, why wouldn't you want to read it and understand it to the fullest?

Torah was given to the Jewish people as a national revelation at Mt Sinai, (which we just celebrated during Shavuot). There's a midrash that says that G-d offered the Torah to every nation on earth, but they all turned it down because they refused to give up their idolatrous, thieving, and murderous ways. Only the Jewish people responded to Hashem by saying, "All that You say we will do!"

BTW, I'm still waiting for a response to my question on the last post.

Yehudi01 said...

Banner Kidd, I am dying to know something...how is it that you call yourseld a Messianic Jew yet you slander all that we Jews hold dear? It also begs the question: Why do you call yourself a Messianic Jew? I understand the Messianic title, but I don't get why you refer to yourself as a Jew. Also, since you do, do you know who Rambam, or Maimonides is? Are you familiar with the 13 Principles Of Faith? Without slandering one of the greatest Jewish sages since Moshe Rabbeinu, how do you understand the 13 Principles of Faith as they apply to J-sus?

Yehudi01 said...

Eifo ata, BK?

Banner Kidd said...

Where did you get the idea that I am a messianic Jew? I am not a jew. My ancestry is Scottish, Irish, German and English. No Jew here. Never claimed it.

"Also, since you do, do you know who Rambam, or Maimonides is? Are you familiar with the 13 Principles Of Faith? Without slandering one of the greatest Jewish sages since Moshe Rabbeinu, how do you understand the 13 Principles of Faith as they apply to J-sus?"

First of all I, again, I never claimed to be messianic Jew. Secondly I don't have to become one to have a relationship with Yahweh - Abraham was not a Jew! And furthermore I'm more interested what is established in Scripture tha I am of the men you mention! They're just men!

I am still struck by your arrogance! You truly believe that being born a Jew makes you special. That is a lie. The only way anyone is special is by accepting the offer of the New Covenant, be they Jew or Gentile, and realizing the work of grace in their lives to be caused to walk in His statutes and keep His commandments!

I wasn't going to post on this again, but your ridiculous statement that I called myself a messianic jew had to be refuted! I am a citizen of the kingdom of Yahweh, by faith in Yeshua Messiah. I keep Torah as I learn it from Scripture (still learning) because I love HIM and that only because HE first loved me.




And what in the world does Eifo ata, BK? mean?

Yehudi01 said...

My apologies, Banner Kidd. I naturally assumed that you were waving the banner, (no pun intended) of Torah, and rejecting mainstream christianity, that you were catagorizing yourself as a 'messianic Jew.' So glad to hear you're not.

Am I arrogant? I don't think so. I am very confident in my position as a son of Avraham Avinu, my relationship with Hashem and Hashem alone, and I am passionate about people like you twisting scripture...the holy words of our G-d to suit your own agenda. After reading much of what you wrote, I conclude that you are delusional at best, and it is you who is arrogant. I will go for now, as it is almost time for Shabbat.
"Eifo atah, BK?" is Hebrew for, "where are you, BK/Bar Kochba?" It is Shabbat in Montreal where he lives.

Ralph said...

Yehudi01, you said...
"BTW, I'm still waiting for a response to my question on the last post."

If this refers to "Can you tell me that the NT NEVER contradicts the Torah? If it does, you must dismiss it and throw it out." then my answer would have to be no, on both counts.

I would refer you to BK's post of June 17-'Levelling the Playing Field' where he says, in part, "In contrast to the Torah's perfect preservation, there exist about 30 000 variations in the text of the Christian Bible."

From all of these, among serious Bible students, the AKJ is considered to be the best, although not perfect.
Consider the one glaring example of a mis-translation found in "Act 12:4 And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after EASTER to bring him forth to the people.", the original text rendering 'πάσχα', the Greek 'pascha', (neut. noun transliterated from the Hebr. pesach)
The very fact that the author of this passage used the word for 'Passover' is indicative that his audience understood the term and were involved in its observance.

To say "If it does, you must dismiss it and throw it out." is the same as using that old phrase of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

No, serious NT Bible students work on the Biblical principles found in " Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips AND ANOTHER TONGUE will he speak to this people."

This is one of the reasons I use the free e-Sword Bible study software program. It enables instant access to a variety of translations, including the Septuagint, together with Strong's concordance, various Bible dictionaries and numerous commentaries.

As I think I have mentioned elsewhere, Jesus of Nazareth whom, in the Hebrew, we refer to as Yeshua Ha Moshiach, was a devout, law abiding Jew who obeyed the law in every point, He was without sin and in that respect He is our example to emulate.

Ralph said...

BK
In your post "Levelling the Playing Field" you quote Maimonides as writing:-
"Israel did not believe in Moses, our teacher, on account of the miracles he performed. For when one's faith is based on miracles, doubt remains in the mind that these miracles may have been done through the occult and witchcraft...

What then were the grounds of believing him? The revelation on Sinai which we saw with our own eyes, and heard with our own ears, not having to depend on the testimony of others... (Mishna Torah - Foundations of Torah 8:1)


Yet even before the 'revelation on Sinai', certainly a miraculous event, they had sufficient faith in him to slaughter a lamb on Abib 14, to "take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses,...eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs.... And ... eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste:.."
(source-Exo.12:1-11 AKJ)

Do you suppose the Israelites, including the Jews, thought this to be some kind of charade?

Ralph said...

Yehudi01, on June 20 you said:
"There's a midrash that says that G-d offered the Torah to every nation on earth,.."

And I believe there to be an element of truth in that admission.

G-d did offer the Torah to every nation on earth through the auspices of the chosen nation of Israel, including the Jews, as in:-
"Deu 4:5 Behold, I have shewn you ordinances and judgments as the Lord commanded me, that ye should do so in the land into which ye go to inherit it.
Deu 4:6 And ye shall keep and do them: for this is your wisdom and understanding before all nations, as many as shall hear all these ordinances; and they shall say, Behold, this great nation is a wise and understanding people.
Deu 4:7 For what manner of nation is so great, which has G-d so near to them as the Lord our G-d is in all things in whatsoever we may call upon him?
Deu 4:8 And what manner of nation is so great, which has righteous ordinances and judgments according to all this law, which I set before you this day?
[let us emulate them, that we might attain such wisdom and understanding, and such greatness]
Deu 4:9 Take heed to thyself, and keep thy heart diligently: forget not any of the things, which thine eyes have seen, and let them not depart from thine heart all the days of thy life; and thou shalt teach thy sons and thy sons' sons,"

However history, even up until today, shows that Israel, including the Jews, failed to hold to the task.

Ralph said...

Yehudi01, on June 18 you said:-
"If something in the Prophets contradicts the Torah, it must be thrown out." You have also made reference to "Rambam's 13 Principle of Faith" which I have since found.

Number 6 of these principles states - "Revelation through G-d's prophets. All the words of the prophets are true."

So, if such is the case, we are most unlikely to find anything in 'the Prophets' worthy of being thrown out, are we? I really think your statement is something of a 'red herring'. (Did I see a momentary flash of a 'TILT' signal on our 'level playing field')

I have also been interested to read an extract from Maimonides' writings which has been presented as follows:-

"If there are 1000 prophets, all of them of the stature of Elijah and Elisha, giving a certain interpretation, and 1001 rabbis giving the opposite interpretation, you shall “incline after the majority” (Exodus 23:2) and the law is according to the 1001 rabbis, not according to the 1000 venerable prophets. And thus our sages said , “By G-d, if we heard the matter directly from the mouth of Joshua the son of Nun, we would not obey him nor would we listen to him!” The Sages said further, “If Elijah comes and tells us, ‘The levirate obligation is cancelled through a shoe’ (see Deuteronomy 25:9), we will listen to him [because this is what the Oral Law teaches], but if he says it is cancelled through a sandal, we will not listen to him [because this is contrary to Oral Law].” …And so if a prophet testifies that the Holy-One, Blessed be He, told him that the law of a certain commandment is such and such, or [even] that the reasoning of a certain sage is correct, THAT PROPHET MUST BE EXECUTED…, as it is written, “it is not in heaven” (Deuteronomy 30:12). Thus G-d did not permit us to learn from the prophets, only from the Rabbis who are men of logic and reason. (Maimonides, pp.27-28)" [note: Compare Rosner Translation pp.33-34]
(source: The Hebrew Yeshua vs The Greek Jesus - Appendix 3 Nehemia Gordon copyright 2005 ISBN 0-9762637-0-X)

So I wonder if this gives an indication as to why the Sanhedrin of the time delivered up Yeshua to the Romans to be executed on a trumped up charge of blasphemy. Bearing in mind that under the Roman occupation of the time, the Sanhedrin had no authority to carry out any of the four forms of capital punishment proscribed by Jewish law. Crucifixion was a Roman punishment and, as far as I am aware, their only form of punishment for capital crime.

Executed because He 'gave an opposite interpretation': eg. "Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;"
(source: e-Sword AKJ)

Was that the way it was?

Ralph said...

Bar Kochba, on June 18 you said...
" However, under Jewish law, that does not qualify as blasphemy, which only means cursing G-d."

"ONLY"?
Is that the same 'cursing' which is found in:- "Job 2:9...(2:9D) but say some word against the Lord, and die."
(source: Septuagint-Brenton)
or
"Job 2:9 Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse G-d, and die."
(source: e-Sword AKJ)
also:-
"Warrants for the infliction of capital punishment, as opposed to private retribution or vengeance, are found in the Pentateuchal codes for the commission of any one of the following crimes: adultery (Lev. xx. 10; Deut. xxii. 22); bestiality (Ex. xxii. 18 [A. V. 19]; Lev. xx. 15); blasphemy (Lev. xxiv. 16);"
(source: Jewish Encyclopedia at this address:-http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=128&letter=C&search=punishment)

I suggest that the Sanhedrin was composed of very determined men who would go to any lengths to eliminate any opponent; ie. one who taught an 'opposite interpretation' as noted in my previous comment.

Bar Kochba said...

A few points:

1) Israel is G-d's chosen people, His firstborn and the recipient of the eternal promise to the Forefathers. The Torah's opening words "In the Beginning"- BeReishit, also means "For the sake of Reishit". Rashi comments that Israel is refered to as Reishit (Jeremiah 2:3), the beginning, the prime. For the sake of Israel's acceptance of the Torah, the world was created. The world can exist without a Rome, an Egypt, a US or a UK but cannot exist without its heart, the nation of Israel.

This, of course, does not mean that G-d does not love non-Jews. Israel was meant to be a light unto the nations and a kingdom of priests. Priests must have a congregation. Non-Jews must follow the 7 Noahide Laws of basic morality. The Talmud testifies that the righteous from all the nations have a place in the World to Come. (Contrast this with the Christian belief that only Christian go to heaven.) The Rabbis say that a man or a woman, Jew or non-Jew, can merit the Divine Presence in accordance with their deeds.

2) The charge against Jesus is eroneous. It was not blasphemy, but idolatry. It is ridiculous to charge the Sanhedrin with conspiring to do away with him. Don't think him special. Second Temple-era Judea was full of messianic pretenders, Jesus included. The trial was a monkey trial which probably never happened as every aspect of it violated Jewish law.

Yehudi01 said...

Ralph, I will be brief in my answers so I can catch up and not go on and on...

You said, "To say "If it does, you must dismiss it and throw it out." is the same as using that old phrase of throwing the baby out with the bathwater."

That's not true at all. We're not trying to agree on a book report of a Tom Clancy novel. These are supposed to be the very words of G-d...or are they an invention of man? I simply said what I did about the Writings, or the Prophets to predicate what I was about to say about the NT. The point is made that if the NT contradicts the Torah, (and it does in soooo many places), then you have to dismiss it as something other-than 'the word of G-d.' It simply cannot be. Yes, Ralph, if there is a baby in this bathwater, throw it out, too.
It's funny to me that you quoted Isaiah 28:10, because it makes my point. Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: Ralph, what precept must be upon precept? Which was the original precept that everything else is built upon? It is not the book of Matthew...it is the Torah.

You said, "However history, even up until today, shows that Israel, including the Jews, failed to hold to the task."
What do you base this on?

You said, Number 6 of these principles states - "Revelation through G-d's prophets. All the words of the prophets are true."

So, if such is the case, we are most unlikely to find anything in 'the Prophets' worthy of being thrown out, are we? I really think your statement is something of a 'red herring'. (Did I see a momentary flash of a 'TILT' signal on our 'level playing field')

I explained above that I used the example of the prophets simply to lead up to the lack of substance in the NT. My statement was not a red herring, and the there has been no tilt in the playing field...it is still amazingly lop-sided.

Yehudi01 said...

BK, I think this point has been belabored. Time for a new post...how was your Shabbat?

Ralph said...

Yehudi01, you said:-
"Yes, Ralph, if there is a baby in this bathwater, throw it out, too."

Decidedly NO! I wiil not throw out the truth with any error that may be found.

also:
"You said, "However history, even up until today, shows that Israel, including the Jews, failed to hold to the task."
What do you base this on?"

'Israel' today (specifically Ephraim), while being a great nation, albeit on a rapid decline, is self evidently not a 'wise and understanding nation' and hardly recogized by any other nation as such. With regard to the Jews and the 'State of Israel' it seems their surrounding neighgbors (nations) want to wipe them off the planet, especially the leadership of the modern day Persians. It doesn't appear that any of them, the neighbors, consider it, the State of Israel, a 'wise and understanding nation'.
Obviously something went wrong along the way.

I see you have no comment on my quote from Maimonides writings so I guess the writings are true and that my conclusions may be correct.

However, as you say, "I think this point has been belabored."
and I am inclined to agree.

Yehudi01 said...

Ralph, I cannot speak to why J-sus was executed. I am familiar with the Talmudic passages quoted, but this is the first time I've heard them applied to the crucifixion of J-sus. You are so quick to declare yourself 'right' or the winner. You're like the boxer that keeps getting knocked-out, but as soon as he regains consciousness, jumps up and starts pumping his fists in the air as if he just won the fight!

Ralph said...

Yehudi01, you said:-
"You're like the boxer that keeps getting knocked-out, but as soon as he regains consciousness, jumps up and starts pumping his fists in the air as if he just won the fight!"

What fight? I thought we were engaged in a debate. On June 17 you said "Therefore, let us debate Torah/Talmud and other Hebraic writings." Then, as soon as I bring forward specific Hebraic writings such as those of Maimonides you say I am "like the boxer that keeps getting knocked-out," and then "pumping his fists in the air".

Where was I "so quick to declare myself 'right' or the winner"?

I have not been "knocked out" as you imply, and am still 'full of fight'. Unless of course you are 'throwing in the towel', so to speak.

Can we continue on with Maimonides and his view of Exodus 23:2, coupled with his '9th Principle of Faith'?

Yehudi01 said...

Of course...but later. I am on my way out to do some climbing in the Columbia Gorge. I'll write later. Feel free to chime in here, BK. You mat have more insight than I at this point.

Ralph said...

גילוי, you said...
"Four tribes were always in the kingdom of Judah:

Judah
Benjamin
Simon
Levi

In the times of the 2nd Temple, the land was not divided tribally."

Can you direct me to scripture in the Tanach/OT which verifies this? I was reading Ezra this morning and found this:-
" Ezr 1:4 And let every Jew that is left go from every place where he sojourns, and the men of his place shall help him with silver, and gold, and goods, and cattle, together with the voluntary offering for the house of God that is in Jerusalem.
Ezr 1:5 Then the chiefs of the families of Juda and Benjamin arose, and the priests, and the Levites, all whose spirit the Lord stirred up to go up to build the house of the Lord that is in Jerusalem.
Ezr 1:6 And all that were round about strengthened their hands with vessels of silver, with gold, with goods, and with cattle, and with presents, besides the voluntary offerings."
(source: Septuagint-Brenton)

There is no mention of Simeon here. What prompts you to suggest that "Four tribes were always in the kingdom of Judah:"?

Papa Frank said...

WOW! I leave for one short week and look what happens. I'll catch up tomorrow.

גילוי said...

Ralph,

They were most likely assimilated among Judah. Read the book of Joshua again, specifically where the cities of Simon were located. Then, perhaps, you will understand that the claim that there are representatives of the other 8 tribes in Judah as well. The phenomenon exists today. If ever you see a Jew with the last name Ashkenazi, he is definitely Sefardi. So why the last name? Because generations ago, his ancestors left the lands of Ashkenaz for the lands of Sefarad. By the end of the 2nd Temple period, most identifications, even with those 2 tribes (Benjamin and Judah) were not in use. See the Mishnah of Gittin, which states that for the sake of peace, categories were set up for Aliyot to the Torah, among the Kohanim, Levites, and Israelites. Israelites, and not any specific tribe.

Ralph said...

Bon voyage Yehudi01,
I hope you have a safe and rewarding journey.

Yehudi01 said...

Thank you...it was very intense and challenging, but we made the summit. I feel like I've been run over by a train today.

Ralph said...

Bar Kochba on June 21 you said...
A few points:

1) Israel is G-d's chosen people,
I agree, Israel, including the Jews are G-d’s chosen people as evidenced by:-
“Deu 7:7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
Deu 7:8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.”
and
“Deu 10:15 Only the Lord chose your fathers to love them, and he chose out their seed after them, even you, beyond all nations, as at this day.”
(source: Septuagint-Brenton)

Also:-
“The Torah's opening words "In the Beginning"-..”

I have always found this to be an intriguing expression. So far nobody I have heard nor read has ever expanded on this in the sense of ‘the beginning’ of WHAT?

Also:-
“The world can exist without a Rome, an Egypt, a US or a UK but cannot exist without its heart, the nation of Israel.”

I have some reservations in this area. G-d said:-
“Exo 32:8 They (Israel) have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
Exo 32:9 And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:
Exo 32:10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee (Moses) a great nation.”
Now Moses was not a Jew, of Judah, but a Levite. So, unless Moses had not persuaded G-d to change his mind, that could have been the end of the Jews, right then and there.

“Israel was meant to be a light unto the nations and a kingdom of priests.”

So, what do think went wrong? For such does not seem to be the case today.

“Non-Jews must follow the 7 Noahide Laws of basic morality.”

As mentioned elsewhere, I find that to be very poor advice. Can you refer that to me in the Torah?

“The Talmud testifies that the righteous from all the nations have a place in the World to Come.”

Now, the scriptural definition of ‘righteous’ or ‘righteousness is found in:-
“Deu 4:8 And what manner of nation is so great, which has righteous ordinances and judgments according to all this law, which I set before you this day?”
and
“Psa 119:172 (118:172) Let my tongue utter thine oracles; for all thy commandments are righteous.”
(Septuagint-Brenton)

So yes, “the righteous from all the nations have a place in the World to Come” as testified in:-
“Psa 37:29 (36:29) But the righteous shall inherit the earth, and dwell upon it for ever.”
(Septuagint again)

However, observing the so called “7 Noahide Laws” does not qualify as ‘righteousness’.
“Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.”
(source: e-Sword AKJ)

“The Rabbis say that a man or a woman, Jew or non-Jew, can merit the Divine Presence in accordance with their deeds.”

But, what does the Bible say?
“Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”
ALL souls, not just those of the Jews!
(Septuagint)

“2) The charge against Jesus is erroneous.”

Apart from you, who says so?

“It was not blasphemy, but idolatry."

Does it make a difference in Jewish Law?
“.. Warrants for the infliction of capital punishment, as opposed to private retribution or vengeance, are found in the Pentateuchal codes for the commission of any one of the following crimes:….. idolatry, actual or virtual (Lev. xx. 2; Deut. xiii. 7-19, xvii. 2-7);”
(source: JewishEnvyclopedia.com)

"It is ridiculous to charge the Sanhedrin with conspiring to do away with him. Don't think him special."

But He is special, as testified in:-
“Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
(source: e-Sword AKJ)

However we know the Rabbis do not accept this for, as they admit, they do not listen to heaven.
(ref: "Again he said to them: 'If the halachah agrees with me, let it be proved from Heaven!' Whereupon a Heavenly Voice cried out: 'Why do ye dispute with R. Eliezer, seeing that in all matters the halachah agrees with him!' But R. Joshua arose and exclaimed: 'It is not in heaven.'4 What did he mean by this? — Said R. Jeremiah: That the Torah had already been given at Mount Sinai; we pay no attention to a Heavenly Voice, because Thou hast long since written in the Torah at Mount Sinai, After the majority must one incline.5)[from:
Babylonian Talmud, tractate Baba Mezi'a 59b]


and where is it found in the Torah that “After the majority must one incline”?

“Second Temple-era Judea was full of messianic pretenders,..”

Yes, and who remembers their names today? Except for one! A pretender(?) whose name has endured for 2000 years.

“The trial was a monkey trial which probably never happened as every aspect of it violated Jewish law.”

In what ways do you think the ‘public’ trial at the time violated Jewish Law?

Bar Kochba said...

1) For the purposes of this debate, Jew and Israel are henceforth to be synonymous.

2) Our society is based on Jewish contributions. Ethics, monotheism, the sanctity of life, emphasis on education and literacy, unity of mankind, equality before the law, etc. all stem from the Torah. If that is not being a light unto the nations, then what it?

Also, look into the Jewish contributions in arts, science, technology and culture. Jews are way over-represented in terms of Nobel Prizes.

3) The Noahide laws are laws of basic morality. Non-Jews must fulfill all moral laws, but not the laws of holiness such as keeping kosher, wearing tefillin, not wearing wool and linen, etc. These are meant to distinguish the Jewish people from the goyyim.

"These seven laws are implicit in God's commandment to Adam and Eve in Gen. 2:16-17, "And the Lord God commanded the man saying 'From all the trees of the garden you may freely eat'."

In the Talmud, Rabbi Yochanan explains:

- The word "commanded" (VaYetzav) is a reference to laws of justice for it says in Gen. 18:19, "For I have known him so he will COMMAND (Yitzaveh) his children after him to keep the way of the Lord and righteousness and justice."

- "And the Lord" (HaShem) implies the prohibition of blasphemy. As it says in Lev. 24:16, "He who blasphemes the name of THE LORD (Hashem) shall die."
- "God" (Elokim) is a reference to idolatry for it says in Ex. 20:3 "You shall have no other Elokim before me".

- "The Man" (Ha Adam) is the prohibition of murder. God explicitly commands Noah (Gen. 9:6), "If one sheds the blood of THE MAN (Ha Adam), by man shall his own blood be shed."

- "Saying" (Laymor) refers to sexual misconduct or adultery, as the prophet Jeremiah (3:1) says, "Saying (laymor), if a man divorces his wife..."

- "From all the trees of the Garden" is an implicit prohibition of theft. It shows that permission is needed to take something that is not explicitly yours.
Likewise, "you may eat" implies that there are things which may not be eaten (the limbs of a live animal).

Jews have 613 commandment; non-Jews have 7. Keeping them makes each one righteous. I don't understand your point about all souls sinning. Of course I agree with that. However, if a non-Jew eats pork or drives on Shabbat, that is no sin.

4) Quoting the Christian bible does not prove anything to me as I find it as authoritative as Harry Potter (though much less entertaining).

5) The charge against Jesus makes a HUGE difference in Jewish law. Saying 'the Father and I are One' does not constitute blasphemy and would never have gotten him brought before the court under this charge. This is but one of the many violations of Jewish law that took place during the trial:

The Sanhedrin met before the morning sacrifice. This was illegal. The purpose of this self-imposed regulations was to ensure that the counsel had taken the proper time to prepare themselves spiritually for such a decision. This helped to ensure that the men were "right with God" when handing down important verdicts.

The Sanhedrin met prior to the Sabbath and prior to a feast day. This was illegal. The Sanhedrin were not allowed to meet on these days regarding any matter related to capital punishment. Since the Sanhedrin were required to reconvene on the day following any capital punishment decision, they imposed this law to ensure that they would not have to meet on a Sabbath or on a feast day.

The witnesses did not agree. This was illegal. The Bible is very clear about the consequences of perjury before the court of law. "Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you." (Deut. 19:19). Jesus should not have been crucified that day. Those who witnessed against him should have been nailed to that cross!

Christ's defense was never allowed. This was illegal. The accused could testify before the Sanhedrin but it was not required. The accused individual's confession was not enough to condemn them. This ensured that he was not coerced into a confession.

The Sanhedrin continually changed their charges against him. This was illegal. The Sanhedrin began by accusing him of sedition (Mark 14:58; John 2:19). When that was not effective they moved to charge him with blasphemy(Mark 14:63-64). Finally, when they could not get a capital punishment charge based on either of those charges, they appealed to the Romans with the accusation of treason (Luke 23:1-2).

The Sanhedrin presented a unanimous vote. This was illegal. According to Jewish law, a unanimous verdict of guilt required that the prisoner be released. This was an added precaution to safeguard against the counsel not taking the proper deliberations and giving a fair trial. This was also implemented to ensure that a conspiracy was not taking place.

The Sanhedrin never reconvened the next day. This was illegal. The Sanhedrin were required to reconvene twenty-four hours later on all trials that included capital punishment. A member of the panel could change a 'guilty' vote to a 'not guilty' but a person could not change a 'not guilty' to a 'guilty.' This was an effort to protect the accused in that a member would sometimes see things more clearly after a good night's rest and perhaps would be more benevolent.

Jesus often faulted the Pharisees for being exceedingly meticulous in their observance of Jewish law, down to the triviliaties. It is therefore silly to suggest that in something so crucial, they would have ignored the rules. It is quite 'out of character'.

6) Exodus 23:2 says that one must not follow a majority to do evil. It therefore follows that otherwise, one must follow the majority. Jewish law is decided upon the majority of judges.

7) Jesus is no different that any of the other pagan saviour-gods, like Krishna, Zoroaster, Dionysus, Attis, Osiris or Mithras. There is but one reason why G-d let Christianity, even with its idolatry, conquer the world, like with Islam.

These are Maimonides' words, written in his Laws of Kings (11,4):

"Even Jesus the Christian, who thought he was the Messiah... was the subject of a prophesy in the Book of Daniel (11, 14): "...also the renegades of your people will exalt themselves to fulfill the vision - but they will stumble." Could there be a greater stumbling block than this [Jesus]? For all the prophets spoke of the Messiah who will redeem and save Israel, who will ingather all its exiles, and who will strengthen them in the fulfillment of the Torah's commandments - while he [Jesus] caused Israel to be killed by the sword, their remnants to be dispersed and humiliated, the Torah to be switched for something else, and most of the world to worship a G-d other than the G-d of Israel! But - the thoughts of G-d cannot be fathomed by human minds. For our ways are not like His, and our thoughts are not like His. All these activities of Jesus the Christian, and the Ishmaelite who came after him, are all for the purpose of paving the way for the true King Messiah, and preparing the entire world to worship G-d together, as is written (Tzefaniah 3,9): 'For then I will convert the nations to a pure language, that they may all call in the name of G-d and serve Him together.'

"How will this work? For by then, the world will already be filled with the idea of Messiah, and Torah, and commandments, even in far-off islands and in closed-hearted nations, where they engage in discussions on the Torah's commandments: some say that the Torah's commandments are true but are no longer binding in these times, while others say that there are hidden, deep meanings to them, and that the Messiah has come and revealed their hidden secrets. But when the true King Messiah arrives, and will succeed and will raise them up, all the peoples will immediately realize that they had been taught lies by their forefathers, and that their ancestors and prophets had misled them."

Islam and Christianity helpef spread the concepts of monotheism and the Torah far and wide.

Ralph said...

Bar Kochba said...
"1) For the purposes of this debate, Jew and Israel are henceforth to be synonymous."

There is much more I would care to say, however, as I am not willing to accept this ruling shall we then consider this debate concluded?

Bar Kochba said...

I don't understand why. In the book of Esther, Mordechai, a Benjaminite, is refered to as a Jew. Why is this so important to you?

When I speak of Jews, I mean all members of the nation of Israel.

Ralph said...

Bar Kochba you said:-
2nd point"When I speak of Jews, I mean all members of the nation of Israel."

I know that's what you think you mean (huh) But obviously I believe that not all "members of the nation of Israel", past or present, are Jews. From my perspective I need to make the distinction.

1st point 'a' "In the book of Esther, Mordechai, a Benjaminite, is refered to as a Jew."

I recognize and accept that. I also accept that those of Levi are considered as Jews today. Those of the southern tribes that stayed with with Judah became known as Jews some time after the northern tribes 'took off' on their own account. I can even accept that there would be a small proportion maybe of all the northern tribes which 'sided' with Rehoboam and also became known as Jews by adopting into their culture. I don't believe the majority of the northern tribes (Israel) ever returned but migrated 'Westward Ho' and continued to grew into 'a multitude, too numerous to count'.
"1Ki 12:16 And all Israel saw that the king did not hearken to them: and the people answered the king, saying, What portion have we in David? neither have we any inheritance in the son of Jessae. Depart, O Israel, to thy tents: now feed thine own house, David. So Israel departed to his tents."
and
"2Ch 10:16 for the king did not hearken to them. And the people answered the king, saying, What portion have we in David, or inheritance in the son of Jessae? to thy tents, O Israel: now see to thine own house, David. So all Israel went to their tents.
2Ch 10:17 But the men of Israel, even those who dwelt in the cities of Juda, remained and made Roboam king over them."
(source: Septuagint-Brenton)

Can you direct me to any part of the Torah which describes those of Ephraim as Jews; or Manasseh, or Dan, Reuben, Asher and the rest. Although, having another look at a map I have of the distibution of 'tribal land' I could be persuaded that Simeon remained with Judah. However it would take more than the word of the Rabbis to do that.

1st point 'b' "Why is this so important to you?"

Because I believe the NT as the inspired word of G-d and errors and mistranslations can be, in the main, determined. It, the NT, tells me:-" Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." an Israelite by adoption, if you will.

As such I also accept the words of Yeshua as recorded in:-"Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."

So, if the 'law, the Torah, is not destroyed', then I am obligated to observe it, all of it that pertains to today, to me, as an individual man.
Animal sacrifices for 'sin' ie. 'transgression of the law' do not.
In any case, where is the temple to offer sacrifices? It is not here, YET.

Are we done now?

Devash said...

For shame that slander against Jews and Judaism and wanton missionizing is allowed to stand in these blog comments. It is forbidden to debate these people.

Banner kidd wrote: "If you don't repent and accept Yeshua as Messiah, keep Torah by faith as it is written you will be lost forever, no matter that you are born a Jew. It will do you no good. Yeshua is Lord! Yahweh is HIS Father, and the Ruach is our Rabbi.

Consider yourself virtually executed for the capital crimes of idolatry and enticing a Jew to abandon his religion.

Bar Kochba said...

Devash, I certainly hope that you are not refering to me when you speak of virtual execution.

I have not allowed any missionizing. I have responded to all of the comments. My goal is not necessarily to debate with Xians, but to spread the Truth. I want to bring back those Jews who are lost in Xianity. Think of the Kohen who became impure while purifying those who had tumeat mavet. We cannot expect to purify others if we are afraid to get dirty.

Devash said...

1. The final message was addressed to Banner kidd, not to you.

2. How many Jews have you "brought back" with this approach? You're only interacting with xians here.

3. Why do you refuse to address the issue of letting slander against Jews and Judaism and blatant missionizing and praise for idols and idol-worship stand???

Bar Kochba said...

Devash, what do you think of organizations like Jews for Judaism or Yad L'Achim? What about Rabbi Singer and other counter-missionaries? Not everybody can be like them, but we must all chip in. I will not let any Jews disappear.

I have responded to all of the slander and false claims. Hence 65 comments on this post. What do you think all of my responses were?

Maybe a Jew will stumble upon this and return to the faith of their forefathers. Maybe a xian will acept the 7 mitzvot. It is an obligation upon ALL of us to spread the Torah.

Ralph said...

Bar Kochba said...
"It is an obligation upon ALL of us to spread the Torah."

For what it's worth, that sure has my vote!

Ralph said...

Bar Kochba on June 23 you said...
"3).....but not the laws of holiness such as keeping kosher,..."

Can you tell me how the Jewish 'Kosher Kitchen' relates to:-
"Gen 18:7 And Abraam ran to the kine, and took a young calf, tender and good, and gave it to his servant, and he hasted to dress it.
Gen 18:8 And he took butter and milk, and the calf which he had dressed; and he set them before them, and they did eat, and he stood by them under the tree."

Bar Kochba said...

Ralph: The angels ate the milk and butter prior to the meat. In between milk and meat, one need only wait a minimum of 15 minutes, while meat prior demands a minimum of 3 hours. There is no contradiction here.

This was before the Torah was given. Although the Patriarchs kept the Torah willingly, they were not obligated to do so.

Ralph said...

Bar Kochba said...
" The angels ate the milk and butter prior to the meat. In between milk and meat, one need only wait a minimum of 15 minutes, while meat prior demands a minimum of 3 hours. There is no contradiction here."

I can accept that this is probably what the Rabbis teach and, consequently is what you want to believe. However, I find no such timing instuctions in the OT, AKJ or Septuagint.

On June 22 you also said:-
"...if a non-Jew eats pork ........, that is no sin."

Another reason why I see the so called "Noahide Laws" as very poor advice. True disciples of Yeshua understand and accept the laws of clean and unclean meats as found in the OT.
As I've mentioned previously, for the true disciple, the NT is built, or founded, on the old.

Bar Kochba said...

It is written down in the second half of the Torah, the Oral Law. It is impossible to understand the written without the oral.

Ralph said...

Bar Kochba said...
"It is written down in the second half of the Torah, the Oral Law. It is impossible to understand the written without the oral."

And such is what the Rabbis want you to believe, and you do want to believe. That is what you have been taught and accept.

As noted previously, there is no evidence in the Torah of any so called "Oral Law". All evidence suggests it is a compilation of Pharasaical doctrines and practices discussed in the rabbinical academies. The traditions of men.

It is my belief that to say "It is impossible to understand the written without the oral" is to grossly underestimate the power of the 'Ruach HaKodesh' which the Almighty makes freely available to all men who ask it of Him, and who comply with His directives.

Bar Kochba said...

Ralph, the Torah was given in its Oral and Written forms. It is impossible to understand the Torah without the Oral law. How does one tie fringes to the corners of their garments? From Deuteronomy 6:8, what are 'totaphot' and how do you make them a sign in between your eyes and bind them onto your hands? In the Book of Ezra, we find that Jewish men had violated the prohibition of marrying gentile women, which is a written prohibition we find in Deuteronomy 7:3. However, how the Torah rectifies this crime is rather extreme, and is something that we find in Ezra:

Ezra 10:3 Now therefore let us make a covenant with our G-d to put away all the wives, and such as are born of them, according to the counsel of my lord, and of those that tremble at the commandment of our G-d; and let it be done according to the law. (KJV)
So, the Torah had it that the means of rectifying the situation of a Jew intermarrying is to not only cut off the gentile wife, but also cut off the children as well. The Written Torah is but only the beginning. The Oral Torah completes it. They are inseparable companions.

Jeremiah 17:21 Thus saith the LORD; Take heed to yourselves, and bear no burden on the Sabbath day, nor bring [it] in by the gates of Jerusalem; [22] Neither carry forth a burden out of your houses on the Sabbath day, neither do ye any work, but hallow ye the sabbath day, as I commanded your fathers. (KJV)
The prohibitions on the Sabbath in the Torah are rather vague. We are told to "do no work," we are told that the punishment for working on the Sabbath is death, but the Torah doesn't tell us what work is! The oral law, however, go into detail explaining what work is. One of the prohibitions is against carry items with you (wallets, pocket change, keys, writing impliments, etc.). This verse from Jeremiah shows the prohibition in Scripture. Had this not been part of the law and Jeremiah was adding to it, he would have instantly become a false prophet. However, the people knew that these laws predated Jeremiah.

Keli Ata said...

"HE was the only perfect Torah keeper and because of this HE is the Messiah and Savior the Son of Yahweh."

Pefect Torah keeper when he broke the Sabbath?

Perfect when he went on a rampage through the temple because of the money changers?

From my understanding the "money changers" were in the temple before Pesach (Passover) and the buying and selling was chametz and perfectly acceptable.

Keli Ata said...

Ralph, can't you at least quote from an English version of the Tanakh? Why the amplified KJ bible and other Christian versions of the bible?

Ralph said...

Keli Ata on 29th June you said...
"Ralph, can't you at least quote from an English version of the Tanakh? Why the amplified KJ bible and other Christian versions of the bible?"

When I have referred to the 'AKJ' it is the 'Authorized' which has stood the test of time, not the Amplified.
However, I take your point and would be content to add to my library. Do you have any recommendations? The local Gold's Judaica store shows on-line "Stone Edition Tanach - Full Size
The Torah / Prophets / Writings The 24 books of the bible newly translated and annotated By Rabbi Nosson Scherman All 24 books of the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, are now at your fingertips in one magnificent volume. It includes illuminating notes and comments, explanatory charts, and a beautiful page layout."
Do you know of this publication?

Ralph said...

No answer, was the stern reply.

Ralph said...

BK
You posted in your discourse "Levelling the Playing Field - Part # 1: The Uniqueness of Israel's Revelation"
the following:-

"He said to me: "My son, be careful with your work, for it is the work of Heaven. Should you perhaps omit one letter or add one letter -- it could result that you destroy the entire world

Rebbe Meir remarked: "Needless to say, I do not err by omitting or adding (letters)... but I am even concerned for a fly -- lest it come and alight upon the right-hand corner of a dalet and erase it, thereby rendering it a reish."

So, what is this Hebrew word "takanot", just what does it mean?