Wednesday, June 25, 2008

Leveling the Playing Field -- # 3 - Messianic Misappropriation

For all this talk of Jesus being 'the Messiah', there is a lot of confusion as to what 'messiah' actually means. Literally, 'messiah' is Greek for 'moshiach', meaning 'annointed one'. In order to have any sort of debate with Christian proselytizers, it is necessary to clarify what Judaism believes about the messiah. It would make sense to assume that since the Jews are the first ones to introduce the concept of moshiach to the world, that they would have better knowledge of it than the descendants of pagans.

What is the moshiach? The Jewish tradition of "The Moshiach" has its foundation in numerous biblical references, and understands "The Moshiach" to be a human being - without any overtone of deity or divinity - who will bring about certain changes in the world and fulfill certain criteria before he can be acknowledged as "The Messiah". The criteria are:

- He must be Jewish- "...you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you." (Deuteronomy 17:15)

- He must be a member of the tribe of Judah- "The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet..." (Genesis 49:10)

- He must be a descendant of King David and King Solomon- "And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever..." (2 Samuel 7:12 - 13)

- He will redeem the Jewish people and ingather the exiles -"And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." (Isaiah 11:12)

- He will rebuild the Beit HaMikdash, the Holy Temple, in Jerusalem- "...and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them.." (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27)

- He will bring world peace - "...they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." (Micah 4:3)

- He will bring the Jewish people back to perfect observance of the Torah - "My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes." (Ezekiel 37:24)

- He will spread the rule of G-d and belief in Him around the world, to all peoples - "And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd" (Isaiah 66:23)
All of these criteria are best stated in the book of Ezekiel Chapter 37 verses 24-28:

And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. they shall also follow My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Yaakov my servant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, they and their children, and their children's children forever; and my servant David shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I will give them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will be their G-d and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I am the L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst of them forevermore.

Judge for yourself: Has any man fulfilled all of these requirements? Keep in mind that the Torah says that the Moshiach will accomplish his task in one try. The Moshiach "shall not fail nor be crushed, till he have set the right in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his teaching" (Isaiah 42:4).

When will Moshiach Tzidkeinu (the Righteous Moshiach) appear? "Today, if you hearken unto His voice!" (Psalm 95:7). He can come today or tomorrow, and every righteous act, mitzvah or good deed accomplished brings his coming closer. Isaiah (60:22) says about G-d, "in its appointed time, I will hasten it". The Rabbis asked how could it be possible for HaShem to hasten the coming of the Moshiach, since he would no longer appear in his appointed time. They resolved this difficulty by saying that if Israel does teshuva and the world is worthy, the Moshiach will come via signs and wonders, miracles and great things, immediately, and if we are not worthy, he will come in his appointed time, through natural means.

How will we recognize the Moshiach? The Rambam in his Hilchot Melachim (11:4) writes:

If a king will arise from the House of David, who, like David his ancestor, delves deeply into the study of the Torah and engages in the mitzvos as prescribed by the Written Law and the Oral Law; if he will compel all of Israel to walk in [the way of the Torah] and repair the breaches [in its observance]; and if he will fight the wars of G‑d; - we may, with assurance, consider him Moshiach.

If he succeeds in the above, defeats all the nations around him, builds the [Beis Ha]Mikdash on its site, and gathers in the dispersed remnant of Israel, he is definitely the Moshiach.[3]

He will perfect the entire world, [motivating all the na­tions] to serve G‑d together, as it is written (Zephaniah 3:9), "For I shall then make the peoples pure of speech so that they will all call upon the Name of G‑d and serve Him with one purpose."

What will life be like? Again, we turn to the Rambam's Hilchot Melachim (12:4-5)

The Sages and prophets did not yearn for the Messianic Era in order that [the Jewish people] rule over the entire world, nor in order that they have dominion over the gentiles, nor that they be exalted by them, nor in order that they eat, drink and celebrate. Rather, their aspiration was that [the Jewish people] be free [to involve themselves] in the Torah and its wisdom, without anyone to oppress or disturb them, and thus be found worthy of life in the World to Come, as we explained in Laws of Repentance (9:2).

In that Era there will be neither famine nor war, neither envy nor competition, for good things will flow in abundance and all the delicacies will be as freely available as dust. The occupation of the entire world will be solely to know G‑d. The Jews will therefore be great sages and know the hidden mat­ters, and will attain an understanding of their Creator to the [full] extent of mortal potential; as it is written (Isaiah 11:9), "For the world will be filled with the knowledge of G‑d as the waters cover the ocean bed."


May HaShem send His righteous Moshiach speedily in our days. Amen, ken yehi ratzon

50 comments:

Ralph said...

"JEWS FOR CHEESES"

Is this an emblem for the 'Tyropoeon Valley' which 'Monty Python' referred to in his rendition of:-
"Mat 5:9 Blessed are the cheesemakers: for they shall be called the children of G-d."?

No offence intended.

Ralph said...

BK you said in your post:-
"The Jewish tradition of "The Moshiach" has its foundation in numerous biblical references, and understands "The Moshiach" to be a human being...."

I suggest there may be a danger here in that when the 'prophesied anti Christ' appears, he will be a man, a human being, and may be mistaken for the true Messiah.

I know you don't accept the NT, but consider this:-
"2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:"

Ralph said...

Sorry, forgot to edit verse 11.

Bar Kochba said...

Ralph, presenting me with passages from the Christian bible proves nothing for me. You may as well quote Harry Potter.

What did you think of the Jewish qualifications of messiahood, compared with Jesus's track record?

Devash said...

There is not a shred of a doubt in my mind that when our Mashiach is revealed the xians will perceive him to be their anti-chr*st and THAT will be the end of the love-fest.

Ralph said...

Devash said...
"There is not a shred of a doubt in my mind that when our Mashiach is revealed the xians will perceive him to be their anti-chr*st and THAT will be the end of the love-fest."

WOW! You could well be right Devash, more than you know.
By the way,
why do you leave the 'i' out of Christ? It is only an Anglicised form of the Greek, as far as I am aware.

Ralph said...

I found:-

"Why does the Torah start with the creation, instead of the first commandment given to the Jewish People? Because if the nations of the world ever accuse the Jews of stealing the Land of Israel, the Jews will be able to respond to the nations of the world that the entire world belongs to G-d, He created it and He choose to give the Land of Israel to the Jewish People." -Rabbi Shlomo ben Yitzhak (Rashi)

worth editing thus:-

"Why does the Torah start with the creation, instead of the first commandment given to the Jewish People (the House of Judah) together with the House of Israel? Because if the nations of the world ever accuse the Jews of stealing the Land of Israel, the Jews will be able to respond to the nations of the world that the entire world belongs to G-d, He created it and He choose to give a portion the Land of Israel to the Jewish People (the House of Judah) including the tribe of Benjamin, and the remainder to the other Israelites, the House of Israel, namely; the tribes of Ephraim, Manasseh, Asher, Dan, Gad, Issachar, Naphtali, Reuben, Simeon and Zebulun."

Ephraim and Manasseh being the leading tribes of the House of Israel, as Israel (Jacob) had placed his name on them.

(ref: Gen 48:16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.
[Source: e-Sword AKJ])

Ralph said...

Bar Kochba on June 27 you asked...
"What did you think of the Jewish qualifications of messiahood, compared with Jesus's track record?"

Here are my comments:-
Firstly, do you truly think that a ‘man’ can overcome all the evils of the world?

then:-
“The criteria are:
- He must be Jewish- "...you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you." (Deuteronomy 17:15)”

As is written, “whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose”. Not whom the Rabbis may choose. Did the Rabbis choose Moses, or King David? I don’t believe the Messiah will be subservient to the Rabbis but that they will be subservient to Him.


“- He must be a member of the tribe of Judah- "The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet..." (Genesis 49:10)”

Yeshua was a devout, law abiding Jew, of the tribe of Judah.

“- He must be a descendant of King David and King Solomon- "And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever..." (2 Samuel 7:12 - 13)”

Yeshua was a descendent of King David and King Solomon as even the Talmud testifies:-
“On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practised sorcery and enticed Israel to apostacy. Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.' But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover! — Ulla retorted: 'Do you suppose that he was one for whom a defence could be made? Was he not a Mesith [enticer], concerning whom Scripture says, Neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him? “With Yeshu however it was different, for he was connected with the government [or ROYALTY, i.e., influential].'”
(source: Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Sanhedrin Folio 43a)

“- He will redeem the Jewish people and ingather the exiles -"And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." (Isaiah 11:12)”

Yes He will, at His return. The "outcasts of Israel", together with "the dispersed of Judah".

- He will rebuild the Beit HaMikdash, the Holy Temple, in Jerusalem- "...and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them.." (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27)

Ezekiel does not say He will build the third Holy Temple simply that he will set, not build, his “sanctuary”, his abode or dwelling place, there, in the third Temple. See also:-(Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, [indicating that it exists prior to his return] even the messenger of the covenant, [the messenger who preached "The Kingdom of G-d] whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:)

- He will bring world peace - "...they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." (Micah 4:3)

Yes He will. When He returns, just as mankind is about to wipe itself off the face of this planet.
It would seem the current President of Persia is getting ready for this spectacular event. I am of the mind that we should also, 'get ready' that is.

- He will bring the Jewish people back to perfect observance of the Torah - "My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes." (Ezekiel 37:24)

Yes, He will. ALL Israel, including the House of Judah, will have David (a man after G-d’s own heart) as their King, who in turn will be subservient to the Messiah, King of Kings, the one True Shepherd. (Isa 11:13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim. and Eze 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord G-D; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.)
All shall serve Him and not kowtow to the Rabbinical system. He, the Messiah, shall be “the majority”.

- He will spread the rule of G-d and belief in Him around the world, to all peoples - "And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd" (Isaiah 66:23)

Yes He will, as originally intended:- (Deu 4:6 Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people. Deu 4:7 For what nation is there so great, who hath G-d so nigh unto them, as the LORD our G-d is in all things that we call upon him for?
Deu 4:8 And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?)

Indicative that ’all nations’, ie.‘all flesh’, are required to observe the true Sabbath, not just the Noahide laws as advocated by the Rabbis whom, I believe, have their own agenda.

Bar Kochba said...

According to the Jewish Bible, the Messiah must be a descendent of King David. (Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Ezekiel 34:23-24) Although the Greek Testament traces the genealogy of Joseph (husband of Mary) back to David, it then claims that Jesus resulted from a virgin birth, and, that Joseph was not his father. (Mat. 1:18-23) In response, it is claimed that Joseph adopted Jesus, and passed on his genealogy via adoption.

There are two problems with this claim:

a) there is no Biblical basis for the idea of a father passing on his tribal line by adoption. A priest who adopts a son from another tribe cannot make him a priest by adoption;

b) Joseph could never pass on by adoption that which he doesn't have. Because Joseph descended from Jeconiah (Mat. 1:11) he fell under the curse of that king that none of his descendants could ever sit as king upon the throne of David. (Jeremiah 22:30; 36:30).

To answer this difficult problem, apologists claim that Jesus traces himself back to King David through his mother Mary, who allegedly descends from David, as shown in the third chapter of Luke. There are four basic problems with this claim:

a] There is no evidence that Mary descends from David. The third chapter of Luke traces Joseph's genealogy, not Mary's.

b] Even if Mary can trace herself back to David, that doesn't help Jesus, since tribal affiliation goes only through the father, not mother. Cf. Num. 1:18; Ezra 2:59.

c] Even if family line could go through the mother, Mary was not from a legitimate Messianic family. According to the Bible, the Messiah must be a descendent of David through his son Solomon (II Sam. 7:14;

I Chron. 17:11-14, 22:9-10, 28:4-6) The third chapter of Luke is useless because it goes through David's son Nathan, not Solomon. (Luke 3:31)

d] Luke 3:27 lists Shealtiel and Zerubbabel in his genealogy. These two also appear in Matthew 1:12 as descendants of the cursed Jeconiah. If Mary descends from them, it would also disqualify her from being a Messianic progenitor.

The claim that Jesus will fulfill the Messianic prophesies when he returns does not give him any credibility for his "first" coming. The Bible never speaks about the Messiah returning after an initial appearance. The "second coming" theory is a desperate attempt to explain away Jesus' failure. The Biblical passages which Christians are forced to regard as second coming (#5 above) don't speak of someone returning, they have a "first coming" perspective.

Ralph said...

Bar Kochba
on June 29, 2008 11:55 AM
you said:-
"The Bible never speaks about the Messiah returning after an initial appearance. The "second coming" theory is a desperate attempt to explain away Jesus' failure."

So, what is your take on:-
"Mal 3:1 Behold, I send My messenger, and he shall clear the way before Me; and the Lord, whom ye seek, will suddenly come to His temple, and the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in, behold, he cometh, saith the LORD of hosts."?
(source: e-Sword Tanakh - JPS)

The 'messenger', who brought the 'Good News' of the coming Kingdom of G-d.

Bar Kochba said...

Where in this passage does it speak of a "Second Coming"? Jesus came bearing his "good news" in his first coming.

This passage refers to the coming of Elijah the Prophet as herald of the messiah.

Ralph said...

Bar Kochba on July 5, 2008 10:47 PM, you said:-
"This passage refers to the coming of Elijah the Prophet as herald of the messiah."

and I can agree with you, in part. However I did try to emphasize "the messenger of the covenant".
To whom would you suppose this refers, and what "covenant"?
A 'New Covenant' perhaps?

ps. Your words "Jesus came bearing his "good news" in his first coming." do show some promise. LOL.

Ralph said...

I was just looking back on my quote June 28, 2008 7:36 PM which I want to repeat but using my e-Sword Tanakh JPS translation viz:-
"Gen 48:16 the angel who hath redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named in them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.'"

Then I look back to the previous verse and find:-
"Gen 48:15 And he blessed Joseph, and said: 'The G-d before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the G-d who hath been my shepherd all my life long unto this day,"

The "G-d who hath been my shepherd all my life long unto this day," and "the angel who hath redeemed me from all evil,"

Is there an statement here that the G-d Jacob refers to is an angel?
Wouldn't a shepherd "redeem" any of his flock?

(from Merriam-Webster)
"Main Entry: redeem
Pronunciation: ri-*d*m
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English redemen, modification of Middle French redimer, from Latin redimere, from re-, red- re- + emere to take, buy; akin to Lithuanian imti to take
Date:15th century

1 a : to buy back : REPURCHASE b : to get or win back
2 : to free from what distresses or harms: as a : to free from captivity by payment of ransom b : to extricate from or help to overcome something detrimental c : to release from blame or debt : CLEAR d : to free from the consequences of sin
3 : to change for the better
: REFORM
4 : REPAIR, RESTORE
5 a : to free from a lien by payment of an amount secured thereby b (1) : to remove the obligation of by payment *the U.S. Treasury redeems savings bonds on demand* (2) : to exchange for something of value *redeem trading stamps* c : to make good : FULFILL
6 a : to atone for : EXPIATE b (1) : to offset the bad effect of (2) : to make worthwhile : RETRIEVE
synonyms see RESCUE
–redeemable \-*d*-m*-b*l\ adjective
Øs²

Bar Kochba said...

Elijah is the messenger of the original covenant that G-d made with Israel. The new covenant refered to is made with Israel and not with the goyim. It is an affirmation and a renewal of the first covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and not a replacement in the Christian sense. Elijah is the forerunner of the Messiah.

Your point with the angels is forced.

Ralph said...

I don't understand what you are saying.
"Elijah is the messenger of the original covenant that G-d made with Israel."

Are you saying that it was Elijah that passed on the covenant to Moses at Sinai?
"Exo 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said: 'All that the LORD hath spoken we will do.' And Moses reported the words of the people unto the LORD (Elijah?)."

"The new covenant refered to is made with Israel and not with the goyim."
When was this covenant "made with Israel"?

"It is an affirmation and a renewal of the first covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob"
From where in the Tanakh comes that idea?

"Elijah is the forerunner of the Messiah."
Do you expect Elijah to be resurrected some time in the future to announce the arrival of the Messiah?

"Your point with the angels is forced."
I don't understand, "forced". Are you suggesting that I placed too much emphasis on the definition of "redeem" or, have you simply not previously viewed those two verses ie. Gen48:15 and 16, from such a perspective?

Bar Kochba said...

Elijah never died. He ascended to heaven in a whirlwind and will announce the coming of moshiach. Look at the book of Malachi.

With whom do you think the covenant of the Torah was given? The Chinese?

Your interpretation of those two verses seems that it was forced into referring to Jesus.

Ralph said...

Bar Kochba
on July 11, 2008 2:23 AM you said:-
"Elijah never died."
Now, I understand the rabbis consider Elijah to be immortal, even to the extent of advocating a place setting for him at each Pesach seder table. I am persuaded that it's just another promulgated myth from the past.
also:-
"He ascended to heaven in a whirlwind..."

Yes, he did, as evidenced here:-
"2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, which parted them both assunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."

He was carried up in a whirlwind and relocated by G-d in another locality on earth as evidenced by a letter he wrote to Jehoram some considerable time later:-
"2Ch 21:12 And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying: 'Thus saith the LORD, the God of David thy father: Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah;"

Obviously Elijah died sometime after he wrote this letter. Unless of course that somehow the House of Judah had established some kind of Postal Service between Jerusalem and heaven. LOL.

Elijah is dead. Immortality is not inherent in any man:-
"Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
and all have eaten of that 'metaphorical' tree.
also:-
"Look at the book of Malachi."

Which says:-
"Mal 4:5 (3:23) Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD."

So, either Elijah will be resurrected (possible, but I think improbable) for this purpose or, and more likely, in a metaphorical sense a person 'in the spirit of Elijah' will be found.
also:-
"With whom do you think the covenant of the Torah was given? The Chinese?"

Now that's a strange question which seems to be somewhat out of place. In any case, the Torah was given at Sinai by G-d, through Moses, to the nation of Israel, including the Jews.
also:-
"Your interpretation of those two verses seems that it was forced into referring to Jesus."

Are you unable to exercise thought, independent of the rabbis, to consider that in Genesis 48:15 & 16 there is greater depth than what most bible students find on the surface? I think that most mainstream 'Christians' also see nothing of much significance in these two verses. That is, if any of them even read the OT.
(all scripture quotes from e-Sword Tanakh - JPS)

Bar Kochba said...

Promulgated myth from the past? Try the one about the dead man nailed to a 2 x 4 who people think is a god. ;)

Ralph said...

The Myth
The “myth” of the House of Judah who:

Advocated adherence to the ‘Jewish’ Torah – the Law.

Supported all the prophets found in the 'Jewish Tanakh’, even to the ones unlawfully slain by past eras of his own people.

Advocated the principle that we should all get along with one another, that is to say we should ‘love our neighbor’ as we love ourselves.

Led a life without sin ie. transgression of the Jewish Torah.

In his lifetime, 2000 years ago, prophesied future events which we see unfolding around us today.

Was executed through the connivance of the religious leaders of ‘his own’, the Jews, without lawful cause.

Who proclaimed the Eternal, Almighty Creator G-d as being greater than Himself.

Whose name is revered by BILLIONS throughout the world today, two thousand years after His death.

Myth?
I don’t think so!

Ralph said...

Just who was that Maimonides guy again?
Isn't he the one who advocates, no, DEMANDS your execution if you don't agree with him and his mates?

A friend indeed!

Ralph said...

BK
on June 29, 2008 11:55 AM you said
"a] There is no evidence that Mary descends from David. The third chapter of Luke traces Joseph's genealogy, not Mary's."

But there is evidence, viz.
"Joseph was clearly the son of Jacob (Matthew 1:16, so this verse [Luke 3:23 - says “son of Heli”] should be understood to mean “son-in-law of Heli.” Thus, the genealogy of Christ in Luke is actually the genealogy of Mary, while Matthew gives that of Joseph."

also:-
"b] Even if Mary can trace herself back to David, that doesn't help Jesus, since tribal affiliation goes only through the father, not mother. Cf. Num. 1:18; Ezra 2:59."

Yet the 'Rabbi' tells us:-
"Question:
I would like to read material on why jewish descendancy only comes from a Jewish mother or a woman converted according to the Halacha.
The tendency today, specially among reform Judaism is that children from a Jewish man married to a non Jewish woman are recognized as legitimate Jews What are the implications?
Answer:
The source is the Talmud (Yebamot 23a) based on Deuteronomy (=Devarim) ch. 7 verses 3-4. From these verses we learn that if a Jew marries his daughter to a non- Jew (something the Torah forbids), her son is still Jewish and is considered his grandson. If, however, a man’s son marries a non-Jewish woman (also forbidden), their offspring are not considered his grandchildren. The policy of the Reform movement has artificially raised the number of those defined as Jews in the American population while reenforcing the tendency to assimilation."
(source:http://yeshiva.org.il/ask/Eng/?id=596)

also:-
"c] Even if family line could go through the mother, Mary was not from a legitimate Messianic family. According to the Bible, the Messiah must be a descendent of David through his son Solomon (II Sam. 7:14; I Chron. 17:11-14, 22:9-10, 28:4-6)

I have read through the Tanakh references you quote and cannot find anywhere written "the Messiah must be a descendent of David through his son Solomon"
To state such is pure misrepresentation and a 'twisting' of scripture, a common Rabbinical fault.

also:-
"The third chapter of Luke is useless because it goes through David's son Nathan, not Solomon. (Luke 3:31)"

You seem to be in agreement here, that 'Mary' is descended from King David, even though you classify the information as useless.

גילוי said...

Ralph, I know you have a problem with rabbis' opinions that being "part of the tribes" is dependent on the mother. But do you also have that problem with Ezra who told the Jewish men to send away their foreign wives? I would understand if you do, being that Ezra was a leader of the rabbis of his generation.

Ralph said...

גילוי,
in what way do you think I "have a problem with rabbis' opinions that being "part of the tribes" is dependent on the mother."?
I support that 'opinion' as it relates to the descendency of the mother of Yeshua; see my previous post.

Also, I have no problem with Ezra's edict. A pity King Solomon hadn't done the same, then we might not have finished up with a pentagram as the Israeli state emblem. Nor the pagan name of Tammuz for the current Hebrew month.
(ref:Eze 8:14 Then He brought me to the door of the gate of the LORD'S house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat the women weeping for Tammuz.
Eze 8:15 Then said He unto me: 'Hast thou seen this, O son of man? thou shalt again see yet greater abominations than these.'- e-Sword Tanakh - JPS)

My so called problem with the Rabbis is really their problem, not mine. Particularly in the way they misinterpret and 'twist' scripture and, their presentation of a fantasy second 'oral law' is, to the discerning mind, a ruse to sustain mind control over their followers.
For example, do you follow their 'commandment' as to how to put on your shoes when you get out of bed in the morning.

Or, do you sometimes repeat “Blessed art thou Lord, King of the universe, who has sanctified us with his commandments and commanded us to wash the hands.”?

Can you provide me with a Torah reference to this commandment?

In addition to that, can you explain the meaning of the word "takanot"?

גילוי said...

I have already explained the basis for these statements from Deuteronomy. You don't like it, so you don't accept it. You see it as brainwashing, but as brainwashing which you don't like, unlike that of Daniel 9.

Regarding tribal lineage coming from the father, see the matter of Tslofchad's daughters towards the end of the book of Numbers. They are required to marry within their tribe in order to keep their land in the tribe. Here we have evidence that the tribal lineage is passed on by the man. Can you provide evidence that it is passed on by the mother?

Ralph said...

I repeat:-

"For example, do you follow their 'commandment' as to how to put on your shoes when you get out of bed in the morning?"

Yes or no?

also:-
"Or, do you sometimes repeat “Blessed art thou Lord, King of the universe, who has sanctified us with his commandments and commanded us to wash the hands.”?

Can you provide me with a Torah reference to this commandment?"

Yes or no?

also:-
"In addition to that, can you explain the meaning of the word "takanot"?"

Yes or no?

Ralph said...

I hope I will always be ready to admit, voluntarily or otherwise, where I have been wrong,
On June 29, 2008 12:19 AM I said:-
“Yeshua was a descendent of King David and King Solomon as even the Talmud testifies:-“

It has become obvious from recent comments, together with my own renewed research, that my observation was incorrect and Yeshua was not descended from King Solomon. However, this does not negate the fact that Yeshua was descended from King David albeit through another of his sons, namely Nathan.
Being descendent of King David is further qualification that Yeshua of Nazareth is the messiah, savior of mankind and coming ruler of the Kingdom of G-d, here on this earth.

May that day be soon!

גילוי said...

The answer to all 3 questions is yes.

There is a reason that I do not explain myself to you:

You hold a warped view of the Torah that is incompatible with serious discussion of the issues. You think that the Torah is not really meant to be used in this world. That is abundantly year from our dozens of comments in the other post, namely when you contradicted yourself numerous times regarding the authority given in Deuteronomy 17.

It is to be expected, as that is one of the things that connects you to Christianity and to Edom, your spiritual forebearer. According to Midrash, he also wanted to appear very religious and very serious about Torah, so he asked Isaac his father: "How do a tithe salt?" The question is ridiculous, salt is a rock, and he knew that. He pretended that the Torah was relevant in order to please his father, and he showed this by starting a discussion which is actually completely a non-starter.

גילוי said...

When will you admit that you were brainwashed regarding Daniel 9?

Even if we posit that descendence from Shlomo is not necessary, there are far greater men than Yeshu to have come out of David's descedants. Far more worthy for the messianic role than he was during his life.

Ralph said...

On July 22, 2008 8:18 AM
גילוי said...
"The answer to all 3 questions is yes."

So, where is the Torah reference for the commandment "to wash the hands."?
(No explanation required, just a simple reference ie. book, chapter and verse)

also:-
There is a reason that I do not explain myself to you:"

Do you think that logical explanations could damage, rather than enhance, your faith?

also:-
"You hold a warped view of the Torah that is incompatible with serious discussion of the issues. You think that the Torah is not really meant to be used in this world."

"Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, ONE JOT OR ONE TITTLE SHALL IN NO WISE PASS FROM THE LAW, till all be fulfilled."
(source: e-Sword AKJ)
This I believe!

And do not think of myself as being found here:-
"Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"
(source: e-Sword AKJ)

גילוי said...

Your belief is all theoretical and makes you feel good. When it comes to making it practical, all of a sudden, you answer only to G-d, not man, as if there needs to be a contradiction. You have not internalized that the Torah is real, so therefore discussing halachah with you has no point. Quoting that verse from Matthew helps you believe in your idolatry, but doesn't actually cause adherence to Torah law.

Ralph said...

גילוי
Would you agree that we have taken up too much of BK's blog site, including his patience, and that we should discontinue these futile exchanges?
I think we stopped 'entertaining the troops' long ago.

גילוי said...

I don't challenge your falsehoods in order to entertain a crowd. When I don't see you putting forth falsehoods as truths, I won't find a reason to reply.

גילוי said...

2 Shmuel 7:13 - He (later to be determined as Shlomo) will build a house for My Name, and I will set up the chair of his kingdom for all eternity.

It certainly doesn't sound like there is a valid king descended from David other than those that pass through Shlomo.

Ralph said...

גילוי
on July 28, 2008 at 8:29 AM
you said:-
"It certainly doesn't sound like there is a valid king descended from David other than those that pass through Shlomo."

Then perhaps you might explain to us, these scriptures:-

"1Ki 11:31 And he said to Jeroboam: 'Take thee ten pieces; for thus saith the LORD, the G-d of Israel: Behold, I will rend the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon, and will give ten tribes to thee -
1Ki 11:32 but he shall have one tribe, for My servant David's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake, the city which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel -
1Ki 11:33 because that they have forsaken Me, and have worshipped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, Chemosh the god of Moab, and Milcom the god of the children of Ammon; and they have not walked in My ways, to do that which is right in Mine eyes, and to keep My statutes and Mine ordinances, as did David his father.
1Ki 11:34 Howbeit I will not take the whole kingdom out of his hand; but I will make him prince all the days of his life, for David My servant's sake, whom I chose, because he kept My commandments and My statutes;
1Ki 11:35 but I will take the kingdom out of his son's hand, and will give it unto thee, even ten tribes.
1Ki 11:36 And unto his son will I give one tribe, that David My servant may have a lamp alway before Me in Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen Me to put My name there.
1Ki 11:37 And I will take thee, and thou shalt reign over all that thy soul desireth, and shalt be king over Israel.
1Ki 11:38 And it shall be, if thou wilt hearken unto all that I command thee, and wilt walk in My ways, and do that which is right in Mine eyes, to keep My statutes and My commandments, as David My servant did, that I will be with thee, and will build thee a sure house, as I built for David, and will give Israel unto thee.
1Ki 11:39 And I will for this afflict the seed of David, but not for ever.'"
(source: e-Sword Tanakh - JPS)

גילוי said...

It is self-explanatory. The kingdom is ripped away from the 10 tribes due to sin, but not forever. What I referenced before is a promise to David from G-d. As such the Moshiach will come from Shlomo.

גילוי said...

Even more so, there is no mention that any of the kings following Shlomo were illegitimate kings, except for a certain line (was it Tzidkiyahu?), implying that the rest of the descendents of Shlomo are valid kings.

Ralph said...

גילוי
on July 29, 2008 at 5:43 AM you said:-
"The kingdom is ripped away from the 10 tribes due to sin, but not forever."

and I think you have missed the point.
The ten tribes were 'rended' or 'rent' away from Solomon and given to Jeroboam, son of Nebat. I would suggest the reason being because of Solomon's sins in following 'strange wives'.
viz:-
" 1Ki 11:4 For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods; and his heart was not whole with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.
1Ki 11:5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the detestation of the Ammonites.
1Ki 11:6 And Solomon did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD
, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father.
1Ki 11:7 Then did Solomon build a high place for Chemosh the detestation of Moab, in the mount that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech the detestation of the children of Ammon.
1Ki 11:8 And so did he for all his foreign wives, who offered and sacrificed unto their gods.

1Ki 11:9 And the LORD was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned away from the LORD, the God of Israel, who had appeared unto him twice,
1Ki 11:10 and had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods; but he kept not that which the LORD commanded.
1Ki 11:11 Wherefore the LORD said unto Solomon: 'Forasmuch as this hath been in thy mind, and thou hast not kept My covenant and My statutes, which I have commanded thee, I will surely rend the kingdom from thee, and will give it to thy servant."
(source: e-Sword Tanakh - JPS)

The kingdom could just as easily have been given to Nathan or any other of Solomon's brothers, but G-d decided otherwise.

The point is that G-d 'makes or breaks' kings as He chooses and there is no promise that Moshiach will be descended from David.
True Christians know their present and coming King, and He is not a man, just as G-d is not a man.
"Num 23:19 God is not a man, that He should lie; neither the son of man, that He should repent: when He hath said, will He not do it? or when He hath spoken, will He not make it good?"
(e-Sword Tanakh - JPS)

Do you honestly think that a 'man' can lead this world to peace?

Ralph said...

oops:
on July 29, 2008 at 6:10 PM I said:-
"there is no promise that Moshiach will be descended from David."

Wrong choice of words. We both know I should have said:-
"there is no promise that Moshiach will be descended through Solomon."

Both true Christians and Jews acknowledge that Moshiac is of the line of King David.

גילוי said...

"Both true Christians and Jews acknowledge that Moshiac is of the line of King David."

So? I don't need a common denominator with Christians. And if you needed one, you certainly wouldn't think Yesh"u was the Moshiach.

G-d didn't take away the kingdom over Judah/Simon/Benjamin from Shlomo's descendants, and that says enough. Your argument is extremely weak if it is based on that.

You don't understand the concept of Redemption and the Moshiach, so I don't expect you to understand fully how a man can bring world peace. There are underlying currents. These currents will bring the War of Gog uMagog, Moshiach, the Temple, world peace, etc, an end to sin, etc. Moshiach alone doesn't bring world peace.

When you say Moshiach should be worshipped (G-d forbid), you obviously mean as definition #1. You are getting in to semantics to prove that we agree, when we obviously don't. Stop that.

Ralph said...

Stop that.
(You naughty boy)?

LOL x 2
Ahh, גילוי , I think I like you. You make me to larff!

Yes, I did say:-"Both true Christians and Jews acknowledge that Moshiac is of the line of King David."

and you responded:-
"So? I don't need a common denominator with Christians. And if you needed one, you certainly wouldn't think Yesh"u was the Moshiach."

So, what's the rub? We just think they are two different people.

"G-d didn't take away the kingdom over Judah/Simon/Benjamin from Shlomo's descendants,.."

For no other reason than His promise to David:-
"1Ki 11:12 Notwithstanding in thy days I will not do it for David thy father's sake: but I will rend it out of the hand of thy son.
1Ki 11:13 Howbeit I will not rend away all the kingdom; but will give one tribe to thy son for David my servant's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake which I have chosen."

"You don't understand the concept of Redemption and the Moshiach,.."

That is what you want to believe and so you will.
However, you could be wrong.

By the way, were you aware of a present day sovereign, a descendent of Solomon, ruling over a remnant of the house of Israel?
As in:-
"Jer 33:17 For thus saith the LORD: There shall not be cut off unto David a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;.."
(source: e-Sword Tanakh - JPS)

Note "the house of Israel" not the house of Judah.

גילוי said...

Yesh"u is not qualified to be the Moshiach by the words of the Hebrew Bible, and he is not worthy to be worshipped by any definition of the word.

If you understood the concept of Redemption, you would not have asked how the Moshiach will bring world peace.

Ralph said...

"If you understood the concept of Redemption,.."

"Main Entry: redeem
Pronunciation: ri-*d*m
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English redemen, modification of Middle French redimer, from Latin redimere, from re-, red- re- + emere to take, buy; akin to Lithuanian imti to take
Date:15th century

1 a : to buy back : REPURCHASE b : to get or win back
2 : to free from what distresses or harms: as a : to free from captivity by payment of ransom b : to extricate from or help to overcome something detrimental c : to release from blame or debt : CLEAR d : to free from the consequences of sin
3 : to change for the better : REFORM
4 : REPAIR, RESTORE
5 a : to free from a lien by payment of an amount secured thereby b (1) : to remove the obligation of by payment *the U.S. Treasury redeems savings bonds on demand* (2) : to exchange for something of value *redeem trading stamps* c : to make good : FULFILL
6 a : to atone for : EXPIATE b (1) : to offset the bad effect of (2) : to make worthwhile : RETRIEVE
synonyms see RESCUE
–redeemable \-*d*-m*-b*l\ adjective
ØE²"
(source: Merriam-Webster software dictionary)

So, what is your understanding of the word, or concept?

גילוי said...

The Redemption is made up of different stages, and oddly enough, you won't find the full definition for what it entails in a dictionary definition (I fail to see why you keep quoting dictionaries in order to find spiritual enlightenment).

No, I will not teach you the spiritual mechanics behind the Redemption.

Ralph said...

"(I fail to see why you keep quoting dictionaries in order to find spiritual enlightenment)."

I don't use dictionaries in order to 'find spiritual enlightenment', that comes from the word of G-d and His spiritual enlightenment through the in-dwelling of His Holy Spirit, the Ruarch haKodesh.

I use dictionaries to try and determine what other people mean when they use words that they do not seem to be able to explain.
Or even to clarify what I have said.

"No, I will not teach you the spiritual mechanics behind the Redemption."

Are you uncertain about the mechanics yourself? Or is it that you just don't have the aptitude of a teacher?

I'll quote form BK's discourse on this Post's topic ""Leveling the Playing Field -- # 3 - Messianic Misappropriation"
thus:-
"How will we recognize the Moshiach? The Rambam in his Hilchot Melachim (11:4) writes:

If a king will arise from the House of David, who, like David his ancestor, delves deeply into the study of the Torah and engages in the mitzvos as prescribed by the Written Law and the Oral Law; if he will compel all of Israel to walk in [the way of the Torah] and repair the breaches [in its observance]; and if he will fight the wars of G‑d; - we may, with assurance, consider him Moshiach.
(notice, no mention here of Solomon!)

If he succeeds in the above, defeats all the nations around him, builds the [Beis Ha]Mikdash on its site, and gathers in the dispersed remnant of Israel, he is definitely the Moshiach.[3]

He will perfect the entire world, [motivating all the na­tions] to serve G‑d together, as it is written (Zephaniah 3:9), "For I shall then make the peoples pure of speech so that they will all call upon the Name of G‑d and serve Him with one purpose."

"if he will compel all of Israel to walk in [the way of the Torah]"

'All of Israel' I suppose includes the 'House of Judah' the Jews'. There doesn't appear to be any sign of success there. With regard to the rest of 'Israel', I don't think the Rabbis have any idea as to where and who they are.

Do you honestly expect a mere man to perform all that Maimonedes requires?

Perhaps you might care to examine scripture relative to these verses:-
"Eze 11:15 'Son of man, as for thy brethren, even thy brethren, the men of thy kindred, and all the house of Israel, all of them, concerning whom the inhabitants of Jerusalem have said: Get you far from the LORD! unto us is this land given for a possession;
Eze 11:16 therefore say: Thus saith the Lord GOD: Although I have removed them far off among the nations, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet have I been to them as a little sanctuary in the countries where they are come;"

nb. the house of Israel not, the House of Judah.

and
"Eze 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them a heart of flesh;
Eze 11:20 that they may walk in My statutes, and keep Mine ordinances, and do them; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God."
and
"Eze 36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel: Thus saith the Lord GOD: I do not this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name, which ye have profaned among the nations, whither ye came.
Eze 36:23 And I will sanctify My great name, which hath been profaned among the nations, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the nations shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
Eze 36:24 For I will take you from among the nations, and gather you out of all the countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Eze 36:25 And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean; from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put My spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and ye shall keep Mine ordinances, and do them.
Eze 36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be My people, and I will be your God."
(source: e-Sword Tanakh - JPS)

This is not a man speaking, it is the Word of G-d.

So, in addition to that, where is the 'House of Judah' in these prophecies? Where is the Jew's 'Man Messiah'?

גילוי said...

To understand what I mean, you'd need to learn Hebrew, and then Torah from a non-Christian perspective. I'm translating words in Hebrew that have more specific meaning, and putting them in words in English that don't have that precision.

The answers to your questions are in Kabbalah, which, like the Oral Torah, should not be taught to Gentiles.

The Rambam there does not describe the process, he describes events at the very end of the process, let's say the last generation or so of the process which lasts hundreds (really thousands) of years.

Ralph said...

"The answers to your questions are in Kabbalah, which, like the Oral Torah, should not be taught to Gentiles."

Is that something like the Roman Catholic church banning ownership of OT and NT scriptures back in the dark ages viz:

"ITEM #1 POPE INNOCENT III

Pope Innocent III stated in 1199:

... to be reproved are those who translate into French the Gospels, the letters of Paul, the psalter, etc. They are moved by a certain love of Scripture in order to explain them clandestinely and to preach them to one another. The mysteries of the faith are not to explained rashly to anyone. Usually in fact, they cannot be understood by everyone but only by those who are qualified to understand them with informed intelligence. The depth of the divine Scriptures is such that not only the illiterate and uninitiated have difficulty understanding them, but also the educated and the gifted (Denzinger-Schönmetzer, Enchiridion Symbolorum 770-771)

Source: Bridging the Gap - Lectio Divina, Religious Education, and the Have-not's by Father John Belmonte, S.J."
and

"ITEM #2 COUNCIL OF TOULOUSE - 1229 A.D.

The Council of Toulouse, which met in November of 1229, about the time of the crusade against the Albigensians, set up a special ecclesiastical tribunal, or court, known as the Inquisition (Lat. inquisitio, an inquiry), to search out and try heretics. Twenty of the forty-five articles decreed by the Council dealt with heretics and heresy. It ruled in part:

Canon 1. We appoint, therefore, that the archbishops and bishops shall swear in one priest, and two or three laymen of good report, or more if they think fit, in every parish, both in and out of cities, who shall diligently, faithfully, and frequently seek out the heretics in those parishes, by searching all houses and subterranean chambers which lie under suspicion. And looking out for appendages or outbuildings, in the roofs themselves, or any other kind of hiding places, all which we direct to be destroyed.

Canon 6. Directs that the house in which any heretic shall be found shall be destroyed.

Canon 14. We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; unless anyone from motive of devotion should wish to have the Psalter or the Breviary for divine offices or the hours of the blessed Virgin; but we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books.

Source: Heresy and Authority in Medieval Europe, Edited with an introduction by Edward Peters, Scolar Press, London, copyright 1980 by Edward Peters, ISBN 0-85967-621-8, pp. 194-195, citing S. R. Maitland, Facts and Documents [illustrative of the history, doctrine and rites, of the ancient Albigenses & Waldenses], London, Rivington, 1832, pp. 192-194."

You can only believe what the priests (Rabbis) tell you. Forget the word of G-d, otherwise you might learn the truth, and be set free.

גילוי said...

You seem to be merely venting your frustration that I won't clue you in on something. Humorous, as you have already written off what I have to say anyway. The Catholic situation is not analogous. I am not the clergy here, I have invested time to learn these subjects.

Ralph said...

"You seem to be merely venting your frustration that I won't clue you in on something."

Are you really serious גילוי
With patience and access to the internet, how could one be frustrated?
See Kabbalah at 'Answers.com'

גילוי said...

Kabbalah is a metaphor. If you don't understand how to decode the metaphor, you will never find the answer as to what I meant. You will not find it on answers.com, or any other English website.

While for an academic perspective the article wasn't so bad, it does have some statements which appear to be untrue. The Zohar wasn't written in the 2nd century and not in the 13th century, but it is a tradition that spanned those years and was finalized then. Academics can't seem to get that right.

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